Discussion:
[Elecraft] K3 - qsk keying loop
Barry N1EU
2007-11-28 15:41:44 UTC
Permalink
I'm surprised to notice no provision for tx enable/inhibit signals
(qsk keying loop) on the K3. I'd appreciate hearing comments on why
this wasn't part of the design and what the timing safeguards are in
the existing "key out" signal to prevent hot switching on make/break.

Thanks & 73,
Barry N1EU
Don Wilhelm
2007-11-28 16:21:20 UTC
Permalink
Barry,

Something was added to provide a "TX inhibit until PTT" function. That
discussion was late in the Field Test cycle. I was involved on the
sidelines of the discussion even though I was not a field tester.

The bottom line is that it is "in there", but I have not combed the
latest documents to determine where it is. Look through all the menu
items related to keying.

73,
Don W3FPR
Post by Barry N1EU
I'm surprised to notice no provision for tx enable/inhibit signals
(qsk keying loop) on the K3. I'd appreciate hearing comments on why
this wasn't part of the design and what the timing safeguards are in
the existing "key out" signal to prevent hot switching on make/break.
Barry N1EU
2007-11-28 16:43:17 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Don. Although TX Inhibit is described in the latest C1 version
of the manual, I missed it because no mention is made of using it for
qsk amp control. It would have been nice to make +5V available on the
AUX I/O connector for the pullup wiring. Also, I'm not sure why the
manual text refers to the "ACC" labeled connector as "AUX I/O" -
shouldn't this be consistent?

I believe there's an omission in the manual - TX INH is not listed in
the CONFIG menu section and I believe it should be.

73,
Barry N1EU
Post by Don Wilhelm
Barry,
Something was added to provide a "TX inhibit until PTT" function. That
discussion was late in the Field Test cycle. I was involved on the
sidelines of the discussion even though I was not a field tester.
The bottom line is that it is "in there", but I have not combed the
latest documents to determine where it is. Look through all the menu
items related to keying.
73,
Don W3FPR
Post by Barry N1EU
I'm surprised to notice no provision for tx enable/inhibit signals
(qsk keying loop) on the K3. I'd appreciate hearing comments on why
this wasn't part of the design and what the timing safeguards are in
the existing "key out" signal to prevent hot switching on make/break.
Don Wilhelm
2007-11-28 17:07:38 UTC
Permalink
Barry,

For amplifier keying, the K3 has an adjustable T-R delay that is very
much longer than that provided by the K2. It may be easier to use that
than fooling around with the external TX inhibit function.
The TX inhibit is more useful to folks who operate VHF/UHF with a
sequencer to switch a chain of preamps and antenna mounted gear between
TX and RX - it can also used to steer the keyer input to one of 2
transceivers in SO2R setups.

73,
Don W3FPR
Post by Barry N1EU
Thanks Don. Although TX Inhibit is described in the latest C1 version
of the manual, I missed it because no mention is made of using it for
qsk amp control. It would have been nice to make +5V available on the
AUX I/O connector for the pullup wiring. Also, I'm not sure why the
manual text refers to the "ACC" labeled connector as "AUX I/O" -
shouldn't this be consistent?
I believe there's an omission in the manual - TX INH is not listed in
the CONFIG menu section and I believe it should be.
Allan Taylor
2007-11-28 19:32:09 UTC
Permalink
Don and K3 fans,

I have a few comments on interfacing Elecraft transceivers with QSK amps.

When the K2 was first announced publicly (Oct 1999, Pacificon QRP forum)
Wayne and Eric invited those attending to give input and comments
regarding desired features. As I have been a Tentec fan for many years and own
two Tentec QSK amps, I requested of Wayne that a QSK keying loop be
provided in the K2 design. As you know, my request was not implemented.
This fall, again at Pacificon, I asked Eric I asked if there would be a QSK
keying loop provided, this time in the K3. His response was in the negative.

Don, in the email below, says that the time delay in the K3 will accommodate
a QSK amp. That is only partially true. The problem is in setting it
up. I could,
of course, put in a LONG delay but then QSK is gone. If I crank the delay down,
at some point I am relying on the RF sensing circuitry in my QSK amps to hold
the relays closed until RF is really gone from the input. That may work but I
would really prefer the sure-fire solution of a keying loop. This allows a QSK
amp to be set up optimally by just plugging in and does not require a scope
and a bunch of fuss. The QSK of my Tentec transceivers coupled with
either the Titan or Hercules II QSK amps is plenty fast for me as I
never go above 50 wpm anyway.

For what it is worth, the Yaesu transceivers and their Quadra QSK amp use a
keying loop. It works great also. We used it in SS this year and had a ball.

I am sure that the K3 will key perfectly with the yet-to-be-available Elecraft
amps, but it would be nice if interfacing with existing QSK amps could be
done in the obvious way.

BTW: I am purchasing a used K2/100 (updated, of course #755) from a
K3 buyer and am on the 3rd run for a K3.


73 Allan K7GT

southern Oregon
Post by Don Wilhelm
Barry,
For amplifier keying, the K3 has an adjustable T-R delay that is very
much longer than that provided by the K2. It may be easier to use that
than fooling around with the external TX inhibit function.
The TX inhibit is more useful to folks who operate VHF/UHF with a
sequencer to switch a chain of preamps and antenna mounted gear between
TX and RX - it can also used to steer the keyer input to one of 2
transceivers in SO2R setups.
73,
Don W3FPR
Post by Barry N1EU
Thanks Don. Although TX Inhibit is described in the latest C1 version
of the manual, I missed it because no mention is made of using it for
qsk amp control. It would have been nice to make +5V available on the
AUX I/O connector for the pullup wiring. Also, I'm not sure why the
manual text refers to the "ACC" labeled connector as "AUX I/O" -
shouldn't this be consistent?
I believe there's an omission in the manual - TX INH is not listed in
the CONFIG menu section and I believe it should be.
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Brendan Minish
2007-11-28 20:35:30 UTC
Permalink
Folks,

For what it's worth, My QSK amp is an Acom 1000, With the K2 and now
with the K3 I have never ever had it hot key or clip Dits.
With My old Icom pro2 I had hot keying issues until I started using the
solid state keying output (it's faster than the relay driven output)

None of my Icoms ever had a QSK keying loop as far as I am aware either,
perhaps it's a Ten-Tec thing

With the K3 I simply plugged it in and got on air. Full QSK with the
Acom 1000 in line is every bit as wonderful as the K3's full QSK
barefoot.
The K3 also has a PTT line, which with the footswich in my setup works
perfectly for overriding QSK when required

I would have thought that with any amp design, no matter how fast or
slow, each amp will have it's time constant.For slower 'qsk' Amps Surely
it's simply a matter of measuring this time constant and applying it as
the time delay?

If you absolutely have to have a QSK keying loop the presence of the
separate PTT line makes it possible to engineer a simple external
solution

Perhaps it's just me but I don't see any issues here, just the nicest
radio I have ever used.

73
Brendan EI6IZ
Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft
2007-11-29 19:11:49 UTC
Permalink
Hi Barry,

We will definitely have TX inhibit as an input on the K3 AUX I/O
connector. Its not turned on yet, but should be shortly as we add this
feature to the firmware. It certainly helps for some set ups when using
the rign in a SO2R arrangement etc.

73, Eric
Post by Barry N1EU
Thanks Don. Although TX Inhibit is described in the latest C1 version
of the manual, I missed it because no mention is made of using it for
qsk amp control. It would have been nice to make +5V available on the
AUX I/O connector for the pullup wiring. Also, I'm not sure why the
manual text refers to the "ACC" labeled connector as "AUX I/O" -
shouldn't this be consistent?
I believe there's an omission in the manual - TX INH is not listed in
the CONFIG menu section and I believe it should be.
Barry N1EU
2007-11-28 20:03:09 UTC
Permalink
K7GT obviously has the same concerns. Over the past decade I've used
a slew of Ten-Tec and Yaesu xcvrs interfaced to Ten-Tec, Alpha, and
Acom amplifiers via plug 'n play keying loops with uniformly excellent
performance.

The lack of QRO QSK with the K3 may be a big issue with some
prospective K3 contesters.

73,
Barry N1EU
Post by Allan Taylor
Don, in the email below, says that the time delay in the K3 will accommodate
a QSK amp. That is only partially true. The problem is in setting it
up. I could,
of course, put in a LONG delay but then QSK is gone. If I crank the delay down,
at some point I am relying on the RF sensing circuitry in my QSK amps to hold
the relays closed until RF is really gone from the input. That may work but I
would really prefer the sure-fire solution of a keying loop. This allows a QSK
amp to be set up optimally by just plugging in and does not require a scope
and a bunch of fuss. The QSK of my Tentec transceivers coupled with
either the Titan or Hercules II QSK amps is plenty fast for me as I
never go above 50 wpm anyway.
Post by Allan Taylor
For what it is worth, the Yaesu transceivers and their Quadra QSK amp use a
keying loop. It works great also. We used it in SS this year and had a ball.

I> am sure that the K3 will key perfectly with the yet-to-be-available Elecraft
amps, but it would be nice if interfacing with existing QSK amps could be
done in the obvious way.
Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ Elecraft
2007-11-28 20:24:32 UTC
Permalink
Hi Barry,

There is a lot of confusion and mis-information about the need for CW
keying loop feedback from the amplifier to the rig in the amateur
community. While certainly it was necessary on some older rig and amp
combinations, it is not necessary with a properly designed rig today
that has sequenced amplifier key-out to RF output. As an example, I run
both my K2 and K3 in full break-in with my Alpha 87a amplifier with no
timing problems or reduction in break-in performance. A large number of
our customers run full break-in with our rigs in this manner using a
wide range of full break-in amplifiers. There is no degradation of rig
break-in performance when using the K2 or K3 in this manner. A large
number of our K3 Field Testers are break-in CW ops with amplifiers and
none have had any issues with running our rigs with their amps.

I think that since some are used to using a keying feedback loop on
other rigs and amps that it is necessary on all. I guess I disagree :-)
. RF sensing in the AMP is absolutely not needed with proper key-out to
RF sequencing from the rig. And excessive delays are -not- needed.

But, if it can be shown that we actually can increase K3 break-in
performance with an amp by doing something like this, we'll certainly
look at doing it.

73, Eric WA6HHQ

_..._
Post by Barry N1EU
K7GT obviously has the same concerns. Over the past decade I've used
a slew of Ten-Tec and Yaesu xcvrs interfaced to Ten-Tec, Alpha, and
Acom amplifiers via plug 'n play keying loops with uniformly excellent
performance.
The lack of QRO QSK with the K3 may be a big issue with some
prospective K3 contesters.
73,
Barry N1EU
Post by Allan Taylor
Don, in the email below, says that the time delay in the K3 will accommodate
a QSK amp. That is only partially true. The problem is in setting it
up. I could,
of course, put in a LONG delay but then QSK is gone. If I crank the delay down,
at some point I am relying on the RF sensing circuitry in my QSK amps to hold
the relays closed until RF is really gone from the input. That may work but I
would really prefer the sure-fire solution of a keying loop. This allows a QSK
amp to be set up optimally by just plugging in and does not require a scope
and a bunch of fuss. The QSK of my Tentec transceivers coupled with
either the Titan or Hercules II QSK amps is plenty fast for me as I
never go above 50 wpm anyway.
Vic K2VCO
2007-11-28 20:26:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry N1EU
K7GT obviously has the same concerns. Over the past decade I've used
a slew of Ten-Tec and Yaesu xcvrs interfaced to Ten-Tec, Alpha, and
Acom amplifiers via plug 'n play keying loops with uniformly excellent
performance.
There is a delay built into the K3's amplifier keying output, both
before RF is produced and after it stops. Perhaps all Elecraft needs to
do is publish this specification and it will be possible for you to feel
more comfortable. I have used the K2, which has about 15 ms pre-RF delay
and adjustable after-RF hold with homebrew and modified amplifiers
that use vacuum relays as well as an Alpha with PIN diodes, and in all
cases there has been no hot switching (checked with a scope).

The K3's "semi-QSK" setting allows you to adjust the hold time from the
same as "full QSK" to a much longer delay than you will need. So as long
as the pre-RF delay is long enough, you should have no problems.

In my opinion, keying loops add unnecessary complication.
--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
Ed Muns
2007-11-28 20:26:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry N1EU
K7GT obviously has the same concerns. Over the past decade
I've used a slew of Ten-Tec and Yaesu xcvrs interfaced to
Ten-Tec, Alpha, and Acom amplifiers via plug 'n play keying
loops with uniformly excellent performance.
The lack of QRO QSK with the K3 may be a big issue with some
prospective K3 contesters.
Could be, although I've used Alpha 87As with each of my K3s in SS CW and
many other CW contests, full bore QSK, for four months now. KEY OUT from
the K3 to the 87A has worked great, as far as I can tell.

73,
Ed - W0YK
Phil & Debbie Salas
2007-11-28 22:16:41 UTC
Permalink
"Over the past decade I've used a slew of Ten-Tec and Yaesu xcvrs interfaced
to Ten-Tec, Alpha, and Acom amplifiers via plug 'n play keying loops with
uniformly excellent performance. The lack of QRO QSK with the K3 may be a
big issue with some prospective K3 contesters."

I disagree that this is a problem. The new TenTec Orion and Omni VII
transceivers have a minimum "amp-key to RF out" delay of 15ms. The Kenwood
TS480 and TS2000 have a minimum delay of 10ms. My Yaesu MKV has an
adjustable delay of 0-30ms (5ms default). I measured the delay on my
IC-706MKIIG at 15ms, and on a IC-7000 at 10ms. If you have a QSK amp, it
will switch at least within 10ms if it uses high speed signal relays,
probably around 3-6ms with vacuum relays, and maybe 1-2ms if it uses PIN
diodes. Both the THP and SPE solid-state amps switch in 7-10ms using high
speed relays. So all you have to do is to adjust your K3 delay to something
longer than the amplifier relay switching time. If you have any doubts, set
it to 10ms and you should be fine.

You can hear where the delay needs to be set by listening to your signal on
a second receiver. I experimented with this using my Yaesu MKV and my
QSK-modified Ameritron ALS-600. The relays in my modified ALS-600 switch in
3ms (measured with a 'scope). But just for the heck of it, I listened to my
signal on a second receiver while I shortened the delay time on my MKV, and
I started hearing key clicks in the receiver right around 3ms (just like my
measurements had predicted). So I just re-set my MKV to 5ms delay and
everything worked fine. I had to set the delay on my MKV to 10ms when I was
testing the THP and SPE amps to stop the clicks.

Phil - AD5X
Dick Green WC1M
2007-11-29 00:35:38 UTC
Permalink
Pardon me for jumping in here. I don't have a K3 and don't have one on
order. I'm trying to make that decision. I've read a lot of good things
about the K3. Absence of a keying loop isn't one of them.



Although it's true that some modern QSK amps may appear to work fine without
a keying loop, bear in mind that both Acom and Ten-Tec recommend using them.
Elecraft should consider the recommendations of the amp manufacturers, not
what they *think* will work correctly. Even if Elecraft is right, why force
the owner of a $6,000+ amplifier to go against the manufacturer's stated
recommendation? If something goes wrong with the amp's T/R relay, causing an
expensive ship/repair/ship drama, will Elecraft indemnify the owner?
Probably not. I sure wouldn't want to get in the middle of that
finger-pointing exercise.



Alpha 87A owners can relax: Alpha specifically discourages use of the 87A
keying loop. That's not surprising, because the keying loop logic in that
amp doesn't work correctly. It's not a problem because the PIN diodes switch
almost instantaneously and there are no mechanical contacts to burn. You can
drive that amp all day with the PTT output line. And that's what Alpha tells
you to do.



Let's look a little closer. The typical Jennings and Kilovac type vacuum
relays used in QSK amps have rated switching times in the 6-8ms range. In
some designs, the relay is triggered with a burst of high voltage which
reduces the switching time to as little as 2ms. So, theoretically, there's
no danger of hot switching if the transceiver has a delay between PTT and
the start of the RF envelope of, say, 15 ms. But the problem is that you may
not know what else the amp is doing besides closing its vacuum relay. For
example, the Acom 2000a has a rather complex T/R switching sequence that
involves several relays, and the timing may be longer if the amp has to
retune. My point is that you can never be sure exactly what timing
constraints a QSK amp may impose, so it's best to follow the manufacturer's
recommendation and let the amp decide when it's safe to apply RF. In other
words, use a keying loop if the manufacturer says to.



In theory, relying on the transceiver to delay RF can reduce the maximum QSK
speed (i.e., compromise the ability to hear between code elements.) But
that's only true if the transceiver's delay can be reduced to less than the
amp's switching time. If the delay isn't adjustable, then the excess delay
will be present whether a keying loop is used or not. The best setup is a
keying loop with a fully configurable PTT delay. At any rate, I can't attest
to the effect of an extra 10ms or so of receiver muting at high speeds. The
QSK experts will have to comment on that.



A keying loop is also very desirable for preventing hot switching of antenna
relays. A TX ENA or TX INH port can be used to suppress RF before and during
any switching. It's possible to use PTT to prevent switching from taking
place, but it's not as foolproof as suppressing RF -- there are timing
windows where hot switching can occur. Also, if you use PC-based software to
do your switching, it's a heck of a lot more difficult to detect when PTT
has been closed than it is to raise TX INH. My point is that many contest
stations, including mine, have switching systems based on the
commonly-available keying loops found on popular rigs. Why force us to give
up or modify those hard-won systems?



This leads me to the key question: Why not implement a standard feature that
the amateur community has come to rely on? After all, you wouldn't want to
get a reputation of ignoring such things, like a certain other US-based
manufacturer of amateur transceivers :-)



I think it's unfortunate that Elecraft has made the decision to omit a
keying loop. They may not have realized that the K3 is going to appeal to a
whole different breed of users than the K2, including contesters who have a
wide variety of equipment, station configurations and very demanding
requirements. Lack of this feature is going to complicate my buying
decision, for sure. But I'm always willing to resort to a mod if I have to
(Warranty? What warranty?) Is there a point in the circuit where it would be
possible to safely implement a TX INH or TX ENA function? If so, my
soldering iron is heating up. ? If not, I hope K3 will reconsider a keying
loop for the next major rev.



73, Dick WC1M
Don Rasmussen
2007-11-29 05:28:56 UTC
Permalink
[Elecraft] Re: K3 - qsk keying loop
Dick Green WC1M wc1m at msn.com

Hi Dick,

Happily, the K3 is modular. Would I be incorrect to
assume that a hardware solution could be engineered to
perform this specific purpose, and reasonably
inexpensively?

All it would really take would be for Eric and Wayne
to buy into the idea of it's importance. I don't see
them sticking their jaw out about this issue simply
out of principle (like some others made a mistake of
doing in the past?)

Part of Elecraft's larger difficulty at this time
involves the fact that they have created a transceiver
that will appeal to a wide variety of interests.

Contesters, CW ragchewers (me), AM, FM, Digital, ESSB,
SWL, even transverter fanatics.

They have released a very fine base model K3, which I
feel will be accepted very well, however they still
have to get the subreceiver integrated into the
firmware and release that bit of hardware and I expect
that is bigger on the list of to do's than the keying
loop - just my guess.

There are also other larger issues behind that like AM
and FM support (advertised), maybe some transverter
issues, and variable roofing filters.

There is a lot in competition for these guys attention
and it will be interesting to find out how the voting
is done with respect to everyone that wants everything
in their own diverse interest.

As a part time contester, given the fact that there
are acceptable methods of getting the switching done,
I'd like to see some features that are not there at
all added, before making something that is already
there a little better.

And I understand that a true contester would fight me
to the grave over this one issue, but we both pay our
money and take the best we can get.

As a general operator, I've been pushing hard to get
some kind of single press band switching in the
firmware, which is pretty meaningless to a contester
that is allowing the program in his computer program
to do all that.

Anyway, I know the radio was primarily focused towards
contesting from the beginning and maybe it would have
been icing on the cake to have the switching done a
backwards compatible way on top of all the other good
stuff, but most likely at the expense of some other
things that would not have made it into the radio.
Some things are still waiting (like ESSB or AM) to be
fully implemented.

Darn I wish I had an amp to be concerned about, and it
won't ever happen at this QTH, but the guys still have
a transceiver that you have your eyes on and I have on
order already so I suppose that's fair enough for now.


;-)

de wb8yqj

[Elecraft] Re: K3 - qsk keying loop
Dick Green WC1M wc1m at msn.com
Wed Nov 28 18:24:57 EST 2007

Previous message: [Elecraft] K3 SSB Bandwidth at this

Pardon me for jumping in here. I don't have a K3 and
don't have one on
order. I'm trying to make that decision. I've read a
lot of good things
about the K3. Absence of a keying loop isn't one of
them.



Although it's true that some modern QSK amps may
appear to work fine without
a keying loop, bear in mind that both Acom and Ten-Tec
recommend using them.
Elecraft should consider the recommendations of the
amp manufacturers, not
what they *think* will work correctly. Even if
Elecraft is right, why force
the owner of a $6,000+ amplifier to go against the
manufacturer's stated
recommendation? If something goes wrong with the amp's
T/R relay, causing an
expensive ship/repair/ship drama, will Elecraft
indemnify the owner?
Probably not. I sure wouldn't want to get in the
middle of that
finger-pointing exercise.
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