Discussion:
[Elecraft] Just how good is the K2?
Brad Hedges
2004-01-19 15:31:01 UTC
Permalink
I have read all the reports. I have seen where various contesters use the
K2. I have even SEEN a K2 <grin>

But I just have a hard time getting over this six pound box the size of,
well, small.

I am in the market for a new primary rig for the shack. I'm getting a pretty
substantial tax refund, and short of an Orion, I can get *almost* any rig I
want. I have pretty much settled on a Yaesu FT-1000 MP Mk V Field, or a used
TenTec Omni VI+ if I can find one, but there is still that voice that says
"K2".

I need some pretty hard convincing. I just built a K1, and while I have yet
to get the transmitter pumping, the rest of the rig is every bit what I was
looking for.

But it's not a "primary station rig" - at least, not for me.

Help?


Thanks,
Brad
K0BHC
Jim Brown" (Jim Brown)
2004-01-19 16:03:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brad Hedges
I am in the market for a new primary rig for the shack.
I think the K2/100 with the KAT100 tuner is a VERY good choice for CW
contesting if you like to operate at 100 watts or below. Since that's
my style, it is my favorite contest rig. I don't think I've heard a
better CW receiver. One of its major advantages in contesting is that
the KAT100 has outputs for two antennas, and remembers settings for
each, by band. That makes bandswitching virtually instantaneous, which
can be a big help in some contests. And in my home station, where I
have only dipoles and a vertical, it allows me to switch back and forth
from one QSO to another depending on which antenna favors a given
contact or set of band conditions.

The only serious shortcoming I've found with my K2/100 for SSB is that
the narrow receive filters have pretty bumpy response, so they don't
help as much as they would if they were flatter. I would like better
narrow SSB receive filters for a serious SSB contest rig. An Omni VI+
or Orion would be my choice in that category.

Jim K9YC
Dan Barker
2004-01-19 17:01:02 UTC
Permalink
Just DO IT!

You'll be very pleased with your K2 as a primary.

Dan / WG4S / K2 #2456

<snip>
new primary rig for the shack.
</snip>
Gregg Lengling
2004-01-19 17:07:09 UTC
Permalink
I use my K2/100 as my primary shack rig...I do have a new FT857 in the =
car
but I would never use it to replace the K2. If you're a CW op and love
contests you'll love the K2....listening to CW for hours on end on the =
Yaesu
can give you a headache...the K2 however is a dream to listen to, unless =
of
course you are in the backyard using a KX1.
=20
BTW I always leave the rig at 5 watts unless someone gives me a really
horrible signal report, then I slowly ramp the power up...but I would
estimate 90% of my contacts are done with 5 watts.


Gregg R. Lengling, W9DHI, Retired
Administrator http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org
K2/100 S#3075 KX1 S# 57
Politics is the art of appearing candid and completely open, while
concealing as much as possible. -States: The Bene Gesserit View
=20


-----Original Message-----
From: elecraft-***@mailman.qth.net =
[mailto:elecraft-***@mailman.qth.net]
On Behalf Of Dan Barker
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 4:00 PM
To: Elecraft
Subject: FW: [Elecraft] Just how good is the K2?

Just DO IT!

You'll be very pleased with your K2 as a primary.

Dan / WG4S / K2 #2456

<snip>
new primary rig for the shack.
</snip>
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n***@earthlink.net
2004-01-19 20:30:01 UTC
Permalink
Hello Brad
This is an old song, but I'll sing it anyway :-)
What do you expect to do with whatever rig you buy?

The K2 is a fantastic rig, but it isn't all things to
all people, just some of us :-)

When I built s/n 12, I retired my Kenwood TS-180, and
have used the K2 as my only station rig ever since=2E
I compete in contests from 10m right down to 160m, all at 5w,
and don't miss higher power=2E In fact, I lack only
RI to complete my 160m QRP WAS with the K2=2E

I think you really need to back into this question and
define what your new rig has to be capable of=2E Then you
will know if a K2 is the right rig for you=2E

Good luck, whatever your choice=2E
73, Bob N6WG

Original Message:
-----------------
From: Brad Hedges ***@nc=2Err=2Ecom
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 09:29:47 -0500
To: ***@mailman=2Eqth=2Enet
Subject: [Elecraft] Just how good is the K2?


I have read all the reports=2E I have seen where various contesters use th=
e
K2=2E I have even SEEN a K2 <grin>

But I just have a hard time getting over this six pound box the size of,
well, small=2E

I am in the market for a new primary rig for the shack=2E I'm getting a pr=
etty
substantial tax refund, and short of an Orion, I can get *almost* any rig =
I
want=2E I have pretty much settled on a Yaesu FT-1000 MP Mk V Field, or a =
used
TenTec Omni VI+ if I can find one, but there is still that voice that says=

"K2"=2E

I need some pretty hard convincing=2E I just built a K1, and while I have =
yet
to get the transmitter pumping, the rest of the rig is every bit what I wa=
s
looking for=2E

But it's not a "primary station rig" - at least, not for me=2E

Help?


Thanks,
Brad
K0BHC

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Elecraft mailing list: ***@mailman=2Eqth=2Enet
You must be subscribed to post to the list=2E
To subscribe or unsubscribe see:
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Also see: http://www=2Eelecraft=2Ecom/elecraft_list_guidelines=2Ehtm

--------------------------------------------------------------------
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Floyd Sense" (Floyd Sense)
2004-01-19 20:52:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi Brad. I've recently been struggling with the same question regarding the
K2. I acquired mine via trade back in September, and then built the KPA100
and KAT100, and began evaluating it as my primary rig. I operate primarily
CW, with some SSB, RTTY, PSK31 on all bands 160 through 10. I use an
Ameritron AL-800H amplifier with up to 1500W output as necessary. I have
very little interest in QRP work at this point, but was attracted to the K2
after hearing so many reports on how well the receiver "hears". After
nearly 4 months of constant use, I've still not made the decision and will
share with you the problems I've run into and things I don't especially
like. If your operating habits don't run parallel to mine, many of these
items won't apply to you at all.

Before getting into the dark side of things, let me say that the K2 receiver
is everything they say it is when it comes to weak signal CW work. I'm
talking about the ability to copy Asian stations on 160 meters in the early
morning hours without the benefit of Beverage antennas. On my old trusty
Icom 765, there are many days when I can hear them in there, but just can't
copy more than a letter or two every now and then. With the K2, the same
stations might be nearly solid copy. The signals don't sound any stronger,
they're just more copyable.

Now for the other stuff. If one is thinking of simply sitting the K2 on the
desk, hooking up all the interconnects, and operating the station as you did
with your old rig, you may be troubled by one or more of these items.

1. ALC: There is no provision on the K2 to interface with the ALC line from
a linear amplifier. ALC benefits are argued like politics, and there are
perfectly valid points on both sides. Here's one you don't often hear: If
you're using an amplifier with a low drive requirement such as I have (pair
of 3CX800s, with grid protection circuitry), ALC feedback from the amp can
be put to good use in limiting the drive. With the K2-100, if you forget to
turn back the power and hit the key, the grid protection circuit is
activated, disabling the amplifier. Since slightly different drive levels
are often required on different bands to drive the amp to full output, this
can be a real pain. Yes, ALC can be useful on CW!

2. Software support: While folks will tell you (as the recent QST review
did) that you can simply define the K2 to logging and control programs as a
Kenwood (570 preferred), many of the programs simply won't correctly
interface with the K2 without unusual operator action. For example, the
logging program DX4WIN will talk to the K2 pretty well as a Kenwood.
However, if you mouse on a DX spot in DX4WIN, sometimes the K2 mode will be
set incorrectly ( mousing on the spot TWICE sets the correct mode). I
understand that this is not seen as a K2 problem, but you won't have that
problem with DX4WIN with a Kenwood rig. I've found similar situations with
other software and the K2. I expect the differences to eventually be worked
out as more and more software includes correct K2 support.

3. Digital modes: The K2 doesn't provide for FSK, but works just fine using
AFSK. However, that means that DX spot frequencies for RTTY will not be
accurate. There is no fixed level audio out from the K2 for input to the
sound card. K2 users have offered a couple of mods to remedy that one.

4. Power Supply Hum: To me, this is a very troublesome issue. Depending
upon the characteristics of your particular DC power supply, you will most
likely need to provide an appreciable separation between the K2 and the
supply. I started with the Astron RS-35M next to the K2, and had problems
with rough CW notes on receive and had to separate the two by more than
three feet before the hum modulation on transmit was gone. I believe the K2
documentation recommends a minimum of 24" separation. I've owned a few
Astron supplies and note that they exhibited various amounts of leakage
flux, so your experiences with this one may vary wildly. Of course, a
switching mode supply circumvents this issue entirely, and if you don't
chase DX on 160 (where the switcher noise may become a problem) it's a
perfectly good solution.

5. The flashing annunciators on the display that inform you that you are in
RIT, XIT and/or Split mode are difficult to see at a glance. A very popular
modification adds an LED to the front panel to indicate those modes and I
can't imagine living without that one.

6. Driving an amplifier: The K2, with its current level of firmware in the
K2 and KPA100, can have real problems when activating the antenna relay in
many amplifiers (and I'm NOT talking about QSK mode). The K2 is very fast
at switching to transmit and bringing up the RF output when you hit the key.
Faster than some amplifier relays, so the K2 momentarily sees a high SWR as
the RF level rises into the open circuit of the still-transferring relay.
The K2 properly senses the high SWR and immediately kills the output power.
This doesn't happen EVERY time of course, and you might not even notice it
happened if you have the headset on. You'll still hear the sidetone. When
it does happen, you have to either turn the K2 off and then on, or run the
power control all the way down and then up to where you had it. A
forthcoming firmware upgrade solves this problem completely, but you may run
into it if you acquire an older K2 without the change. Elecraft was VERY
quick to react to this problem when reported and to provide a solution.

7. Audio: The audio level from the K2 is anemic when compared to many other
rigs you'd use as your primary rig. With the built-in speaker, I found it
adequate, but it needed a bit of external help when driving my 8 ohm station
speaker. This isn't a major issue, but can be puzzling if you don't expect
it.

8. Power rollback with rising SWR: The K2 will begin to rollback the output
power at fairly low SWR levels (mine began around 1.5:1). This can be a
problem when driving an amplifier if it's one that has bandswitch positions
that are shared between two bands (notably, many Ameritron amps). You may
be able to adjust the amp tuned input to achieve a better compromise SWR
between the two bands. Again, a forthcoming firmware upgrade for the KPA100
resolves this by raising the SWR level at which rollback begins to occur.
That completely solves the problem.

9. Loss of power when changing bands: When you change from one band to
another, the K2 will not produce full output for a few dit times when you
first hit the key. So, if you're contesting, change bands, and then send
your call in response to a CQ, you might find the first letter of your call
is incorrectly received because the leading code element is not heard. It
was explained to me that the K2 does not remember its ALC settings from band
to band and recalculates the correct level the first time you hit the key on
a new band. As long as you're aware of it, it's a very minor problem and
can be avoided by just hitting the key once quickly when changing bands.

The K2 will likely retain its place on my desk primarily because of the
excellent support from both Elecraft and other K2 users. Its idiosyncrasies
are much more tolerable if you've ever owned an Italian sports car. Yep - I
think I can hear that K2 calling you, Brad.

73, Floyd - K8AC


----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Hedges" <***@nc.rr.com>
To: <***@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 9:29 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] Just how good is the K2?
Post by Brad Hedges
I have read all the reports. I have seen where various contesters use the
K2. I have even SEEN a K2 <grin>
But I just have a hard time getting over this six pound box the size of,
well, small.
I am in the market for a new primary rig for the shack. I'm getting a pretty
substantial tax refund, and short of an Orion, I can get *almost* any rig I
want. I have pretty much settled on a Yaesu FT-1000 MP Mk V Field, or a used
TenTec Omni VI+ if I can find one, but there is still that voice that says
"K2".
I need some pretty hard convincing. I just built a K1, and while I have yet
to get the transmitter pumping, the rest of the rig is every bit what I was
looking for.
But it's not a "primary station rig" - at least, not for me.
Help?
Thanks,
Brad
K0BHC
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You must be subscribed to post to the list.
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Post by Brad Hedges
Elecraft Web Page: http://www.elecraft.com
Also see: http://www.elecraft.com/elecraft_list_guidelines.htm
Brendan Minish
2004-01-19 21:32:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Floyd Sense" (Floyd Sense)
2. Software support: While folks will tell you (as the recent QST review
did) that you can simply define the K2 to logging and control programs as a
Kenwood (570 preferred), many of the programs simply won't correctly
interface with the K2 without unusual operator action. For example, the
logging program DX4WIN will talk to the K2 pretty well as a Kenwood.
However, if you mouse on a DX spot in DX4WIN, sometimes the K2 mode will be
set incorrectly ( mousing on the spot TWICE sets the correct mode). I
understand that this is not seen as a K2 problem, but you won't have that
problem with DX4WIN with a Kenwood rig. I've found similar situations with
other software and the K2. I expect the differences to eventually be worked
out as more and more software includes correct K2 support.
As the person who did the software support for the K2 in Dxbase I can share
with you why this happens ;-)

Back in the mists of time, before band stacking registers or the ability
for radios to remember the mode or frequency last used on each band, it
didn't matter in which order software sent commands.

For some reason many software packages seem to set the mode and then set
the frequency.
The problem with this is that the K2 changes mode on the current band THEN
changes to the new band as the next command instructs, however it uses the
mode last used on that band. This in my opinion is the correct behavior
from the radio since the radio is doing exactly what it is being told to do
in the order that the commands were sent.

With DXbase and with Writelog you will not have this problem, Hopefully
once this is explained to the author of your favorite logging package it
won't take long for 'proper' k2 Support to be added.

Incidentally the TS570 works 100% ok with the commands in the 'correct' order
Post by Floyd Sense" (Floyd Sense)
6. Driving an amplifier: The K2, with its current level of firmware in the...
I have never had the slightest problem driving my Acom 1000 with the K2.
the Acom 1k is a full QSK amp and requires around 70W drive for full
output, personally I have no need for ALC with this setup.


73
Brendan
Vic Rosenthal
2004-01-19 22:32:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Floyd Sense" (Floyd Sense)
6. Driving an amplifier: The K2, with its current level of firmware in the
K2 and KPA100, can have real problems when activating the antenna relay in
many amplifiers (and I'm NOT talking about QSK mode).
Well...I'm not denying that it is a problem, but the problem is in the
amplifier, not the K2. There is plenty of delay after the 8r line
(which operates the amplifier keying) is activated and before RF
appears. Ameritron uses slow open-frame relays for t/r switiching, for
cost reasons. This problem did not occur with my homebrew or modified
amplifiers that use vacuum relays, and does not happen with my present
amplifier that uses PIN diode switching.

The fact is that it is good that the K2 has a fast-acting SWR sensor,
since an open antenna circuit can produce a high voltage that might
damage the output transistors in a short time. I'm sure Wayne knows
what he's doing in developing a work-around for the problem, but my
point is that it is a work-around for an amplifier issue, not a K2 problem.
--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
Brendan Minish
2004-01-19 21:01:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi Brad.
I have a K2 with all the trimmings including the 100w PA and ATU (remote
mounted in an EC2 case)

A properly set up K2 (take your time and follow the instructions ;-) is a
phenomenal receiver and the ergonomics are to my mind spot on. My other
radio in this shack is an Icom 756pro2 when things get tough (E.g CW
contests) the K2 out-hears the pro2 easily.
A few moths ago I rearranged the shack so as to put the pro2 in the second
radio position, the K2 is my primary radio.

the K2 drives my Acom 1000 amp very nicely, the band decoder works a treat,
the computer interface works like the kenwood ts570 so even software that
doesn't directly support the k2 will work fine.

I also use the K2 from time to time in SSB and am perfectly happy with the
sound of the received audio and get good reports on my transmitted audio.
The DSP filtering is a big help in SSB if things are tough going.

If you want general coverage receive or intend to operate a lot of data
modes the K2 may not be for you but if you want a great CW / SSB rig I
doubt you could do better than the K2.

As an added bonus you will get a lot of enjoyment out of building it.

73
Brendan EI6IZ k2 # 1642
Post by Brad Hedges
I have read all the reports. I have seen where various contesters use the
K2. I have even SEEN a K2 <grin>
But I just have a hard time getting over this six pound box the size of,
well, small.
I am in the market for a new primary rig for the shack. I'm getting a pretty
substantial tax refund, and short of an Orion, I can get *almost* any rig I
want. I have pretty much settled on a Yaesu FT-1000 MP Mk V Field, or a used
TenTec Omni VI+ if I can find one, but there is still that voice that says
"K2".
I need some pretty hard convincing. I just built a K1, and while I have yet
to get the transmitter pumping, the rest of the rig is every bit what I was
looking for.
But it's not a "primary station rig" - at least, not for me.
Help?
Thanks,
Brad
K0BHC
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George, W5YR
2004-01-20 03:17:03 UTC
Permalink
Brendan, unless you add the internal audio DSP module or use an external
processor such as the NIR-12 or 599XXX, how on CW do you deal with
heterodynes without a notch filter? With no IF shift available, how do you
deal with adjacent channel QRM other than narrowing the IF or audio filter
(if used) bandwidth? Ditto for SSB?

I use my PRO2 and 746PRO as the main station radios with the K2 sitting at
the ready for portable use and occasional background listening while working
in the shack. I realize that our operating requirements are different in all
likelihood, but I have found no constructive way around the above-mentioned
shortcomings of the K2. I love the little radio for portable use and for
taking on trips - a complete station in a small tool case - but for main
station use, I just don't understand . . .

I can hear on the PRO2 or 746PRO any station that I can hear on the K2. The
exception is that with either PRO I can take that weak "hearable" signal and
work on it with the IF and audio tools in the PROs and turn it into a
readable/workable signal. I have found that either PRO will handle strong
signals as well or better than the K2.

The K2, with the wider filters and higher shape factors, does have a more
pleasing sound on CW, but when the chips are down, the 50 or 100 Hz IF DSP
filters in the PROs remove the QRM and QRN at the loss of some of the
pleasant sound - I can accept that trade-off.

I am not knocking the K2 for what I think it was designed for and the
purposes for which I personally use it. The part I don't understand - based
upon over 57 years of hamming, mostly CW - is why and how it has become
regarded by so many as superior to the PROs and other high-end rigs with
more capabilities. Perhaps my serial no. 489 has not kept up with the
attainments of the latest production units.

This is not intended to do anything other than comment on the technical
merits of the K2 - let's leave off the missionary and flame notes, folks. I
have the K2, I use the K2, and I enjoy the K2. But I do my Fox Hunting on
the PRO2.

73, George W5YR
***@att.net


----- Original Message -----
From: "Brendan Minish" <***@oceanfree.net>
To: "Brad Hedges" <***@nc.rr.com>; <***@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 1:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Just how good is the K2?
Post by Floyd Sense" (Floyd Sense)
Hi Brad.
I have a K2 with all the trimmings including the 100w PA and ATU (remote
mounted in an EC2 case)
A properly set up K2 (take your time and follow the instructions ;-) is a
phenomenal receiver and the ergonomics are to my mind spot on. My other
radio in this shack is an Icom 756pro2 when things get tough (E.g CW
contests) the K2 out-hears the pro2 easily.
A few moths ago I rearranged the shack so as to put the pro2 in the second
radio position, the K2 is my primary radio.
Brendan Minish
2004-01-20 12:16:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by George, W5YR
Brendan, unless you add the internal audio DSP module or use an external
processor such as the NIR-12 or 599XXX, how on CW do you deal with
heterodynes without a notch filter?
With no IF shift available, how do you
deal with adjacent channel QRM other than narrowing the IF or audio filter
I have added the internal DSP but my ears with a combination of narrowing
the filter and the often forgotten about CW-R feature. In the worst cases
using a narrow filter along with narrow DSP and tuning so the wanted signal
is at the edge of the passband
Post by George, W5YR
(if used) bandwidth? Ditto for SSB?
the DSP in my opinion makes the K2 a useful SSB rig, I don't do much ssb
operating other than some local nets.
Post by George, W5YR
but for main
station use, I just don't understand . . .
Well the eyeopener for me was using both rigs (pro2 & K2) in a CW contest
on top band, yes the Pro2 had better tools for digging them out of the
noise, however it also had more noise...

With the K2 I had to do less work to hear the same signals and there were a
few that I could not hear at all on the Pro2.
With my setup I can put any antenna on either radio with the flick of a
switch and I have yet to hear a single CW signal that the PRO2 could hear
better than the K2.
On crowded bands the K2's Higher 5 Khz Blocking dynamic range and better
3rd order IMD performance over the pro2 may have something to do with what
I hear

http://www.elecraft.com/K2_perf.htm#Main

My K2 has been carefully built, I have done all the elecraft mods to it and
I have aligned it very carefully using good test gear, it performs about as
well as a K2 is able to.
Post by George, W5YR
I can hear on the PRO2 or 746PRO any station that I can hear on the K2. The
exception is that with either PRO I can take that weak "hearable" signal and
work on it with the IF and audio tools in the PROs and turn it into a
readable/workable signal. I have found that either PRO will handle strong
signals as well or better than the K2.
I have never found the noise reduction any use whatsoever, however I am a
sound engineer and have an excellent ability to hear detail, my job
requires it. I suspect that as a result I find it easier than many to use
my brain as a CW filter ( DSP in wetware?) The K2 easily allows my ear to
pick out a weak signal very close to a much stronger signal. I don't find
the audio of the pro2 as transparent in this regard.
Post by George, W5YR
The K2, with the wider filters and higher shape factors, does have a more
pleasing sound on CW, but when the chips are down, the 50 or 100 Hz IF DSP
filters in the PROs remove the QRM and QRN at the loss of some of the
pleasant sound - I can accept that trade-off.
I find that a 120 Hz setting on the k2 (yes the shape factor isn't as good
as the pro2) along with the DSP module set to around 100 hz is a formidable
weapon but I almost always run at around 600 or 450 Hz and let the ears do
the work, it's less tiring that way.
Post by George, W5YR
I am not knocking the K2 for what I think it was designed for and the
purposes for which I personally use it. The part I don't understand - based
upon over 57 years of hamming, mostly CW - is why and how it has become
regarded by so many as superior to the PROs and other high-end rigs with
more capabilities. Perhaps my serial no. 489 has not kept up with the
attainments of the latest production units.
I like the pro2 I really do, I owned a pro before the pro2. I use the pro2
regularly and it is a top notch performer, however for CW (where I don't
need the pro2's extra features) I can hear better under tough conditions
with the K2. I also prefer the k2's (admittedly slower) Full break in
because it's smoother, even after i modified it to go faster ;-)

My k2 is # 1642 and I have done all the post 3000 mods along with a few
others. The biggest improvement was the closer matched xtals for the filter
along with the mod to improve de-coupling between the xtals and the varicap
control line
see
http://home.pacbell.net/johngreb/Mod_To_Improve_K2_CW_Filter_Rejection.pdf

there's full list of mods here
http://www.qsl.net/la3za/K2/mod.html

For my operating style and habits I find the k2 better than the pro2
although I definitely consider the PRO2 a keeper .


73
Brendan
Mike Harris
2004-01-21 00:12:02 UTC
Permalink
G'day
Post by George, W5YR
Brendan, unless you add the internal audio DSP module or use an external
processor such as the NIR-12 or 599XXX, how on CW do you deal with
heterodynes without a notch filter?
The KDSP2 doesn't do notch on CW.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO
(IOTA SA-002)
(GD18BH)
George, W5YR
2004-01-21 00:33:01 UTC
Permalink
Thanks, Mike. I would expect the automatic notch feature to become inactive
on CW. Does it have then a manual notch for that mode?

73, George W5YR
***@att.net


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Harris" <***@horizon.co.fk>
To: "George, W5YR" <***@att.net>; <***@mailman.qth.net>; "Brendan
Minish" <***@oceanfree.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Just how good is the K2?
Post by Mike Harris
G'day
Post by George, W5YR
Brendan, unless you add the internal audio DSP module or use an external
processor such as the NIR-12 or 599XXX, how on CW do you deal with
heterodynes without a notch filter?
The KDSP2 doesn't do notch on CW.
Regards,
Mike VP8NO
(IOTA SA-002)
(GD18BH)
_______________________________________________
You must be subscribed to post to the list.
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Post by Mike Harris
Elecraft Web Page: http://www.elecraft.com
Also see: http://www.elecraft.com/elecraft_list_guidelines.htm
Bill Linn
2004-01-21 08:16:02 UTC
Permalink
Now, fess up! Who got it? (Mine came today and was Number 4001.)

Bill - W7WEL

---
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Dan Presley
2004-01-22 07:40:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi George-well, I played extensively both with the Pro2 and a FT
1000MP, and the IMD products drove me nuts! I could easily hear sigs
on the K2 that were garbled or unreadable on the Pro,the 1000MP and a
T-T Corsair II ( my next favorite cw rig). In the heat of battle as a
fox, I can say that the K2 beats all of the other radios I've used (
haven't tried an Orion yet). It's the only one that didn't fold up
under the assault of having hundreds of signals 'hurled' at me by the
qrp crowd.I call it 'blow by', but a better phrase is IMD which I
found objectionable on the Icom and Yaesu, and the Corsair.All of the
other radios were not able to sort out multiple signals, and no
amount of audio/dsp/notch filtering would solve that-it's a design
issue. Might be different if I was just chasing one signal, but I use
the cw reverse, filters and audio filters, and haven't been flummoxed
yet. We all hear things differently, and I hope no one has been
obnoxious just because you expressed another opinion :). I am
wondering if some of the mods ( mine is #1010-with all updates except
the crystal grounding) and careful alignment with spectrogram might
make a difference in your rig. I talk with a fair number of dxers and
dxepedtioners, and a lot of them are ditching the
Icoms/Yaesus/Kenwoods for K2s due to superior performance, especially
in weak signal stuff like 160, and also on dxepedtions for the IMD
performance.
I do appreciate a lot of your posts to this and qrp-l .Maybe look at
'tweaking' your K2-might be a new rig :)
--
Dan Presley-N7CQR-Portland, Or QRP-L #502
***@arrl.net
George, W5YR
2004-01-22 09:23:01 UTC
Permalink
Dan, you make some good points and knowing you as one who has been in the
trenches on the other end of the Pack more than once, I greatly respect your
opinion.

I suspect that you are right about my K2 needing some TLC and upgrading.
However, you mentioned that your main signal processing tools are CW-R,
filter bandwidth and AF filter. These I have found inadequate but that
likely is due to my lack of operating skill using only these tools. Guess
the PRO2 has really spoiled me! <:}

If you can handle our Fox Hunt pileups with only those tools to aid you,
then I am missing the boat and need to correct both my own operating
practices and the condition of my K2.

Yes, a couple of folks have taken umbrage that I would dare suggest that a
PRO2 was the equal to a K2, and I may have been overly outspoken in that
regard for which I apologize to the reflector group. Yet, my intentions were
fair and honorable: I only wanted to try to understand why someone would
sell an FT1000D or a PRO2 and rely solely upon a little K2 for the main
station rig when my experience argued strongly against such a move. Your
note has done a lot to answer that question, Dan.

I appreciate your taking time to help me out. See you again in your next
Hunt! And many thanks for past pelts!

73, George W5YR
***@att.net


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Presley" <***@comcast.net>
To: "George, W5YR" <***@att.net>
Cc: <***@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 12:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Just how good is the K2?
Post by Dan Presley
Hi George-well, I played extensively both with the Pro2 and a FT
1000MP, and the IMD products drove me nuts! I could easily hear sigs
on the K2 that were garbled or unreadable on the Pro,the 1000MP and a
T-T Corsair II ( my next favorite cw rig). In the heat of battle as a
fox, I can say that the K2 beats all of the other radios I've used (
haven't tried an Orion yet). It's the only one that didn't fold up
under the assault of having hundreds of signals 'hurled' at me by the
qrp crowd.I call it 'blow by', but a better phrase is IMD which I
found objectionable on the Icom and Yaesu, and the Corsair.All of the
other radios were not able to sort out multiple signals, and no
amount of audio/dsp/notch filtering would solve that-it's a design
issue. Might be different if I was just chasing one signal, but I use
the cw reverse, filters and audio filters, and haven't been flummoxed
yet. We all hear things differently, and I hope no one has been
obnoxious just because you expressed another opinion :). I am
wondering if some of the mods ( mine is #1010-with all updates except
the crystal grounding) and careful alignment with spectrogram might
make a difference in your rig. I talk with a fair number of dxers and
dxepedtioners, and a lot of them are ditching the
Icoms/Yaesus/Kenwoods for K2s due to superior performance, especially
in weak signal stuff like 160, and also on dxepedtions for the IMD
performance.
I do appreciate a lot of your posts to this and qrp-l .Maybe look at
'tweaking' your K2-might be a new rig :)
--
Dan Presley-N7CQR-Portland, Or QRP-L #502
Eric Swartz WA6HHQ - Elecraft
2004-01-22 18:28:11 UTC
Permalink
We welcome discussions of this type and certainly do not want anyone to slam
those who present balanced criticisms of the K2. What is important is to keep
the discussions cordial and not to slip into 'true believer' emotional
arguments of one rig versus another, or to personally attack someone.

I make it a rule never to shoot the messenger, even if I disagree with their
comments. Instead I try to respond with a reasoned, non emotional, argument to
make my point.

Its only by carefully listening to critical comments like George's and others
that we can improve our current and future offerings :-)

73, Eric WA6HHQ
Elecraft
Post by George, W5YR
Dan, you make some good points and knowing you as one who has been in the
trenches on the other end of the Pack more than once, I greatly respect your
opinion.
Dan Presley
2004-01-23 06:37:01 UTC
Permalink
Hey George-thanks for the kind words! To those who may not know, I
believe George is currently leading ( or very close!) in the QRP-L
foxhunt contest on 40M ( every Tuesday night ((Wed 0200-0400 UTC)
7038-42 +/-. He is a great operator, so I listen closely when he
speaks.
George, I think what is different about the K2 is the design and use
as compared to other rigs. What I mean ( for me) is that it may not
have all of the filtering tools that other rigs might have, but what
it does have is the ability to hear the signals in its passband a lot
clearer and cleaner, which for my ears makes it much easier to pick
out one signal even if there's another very close by. I know it sorta
fights the logic we've all used for many years-that what is essential
is to attain 'single-signal' performance out of our rigs, but what I
see has happened with a lot of the rigs out there is the ability to
filter out the signal, but by the time you do this and 're-process'
it, so to speak,it's lost a lot of clarity and in some cases it's so
hard to actually copy it that what might have been gained in reducing
qrm is ultimately a negative result.With the K2 it doesn't bother me
nearly as much if there's a close signal because it's so much easier
and quicker to pull out the one I want, and with a lot less
fatigue.The filtering ( I use the KAF2) is still awfully good, and by
the time I kick the regular plus audio filters in I really wouldn't
want much beyond that. The signals pop right out and it's a real
pleasure even under fairly intense qrm.
Try this for fun-on the night of the next foxhunt ( Tuesday local
date) after you bag your pelts, fire up the K2 and pretend you're the
fox and try to see how quickly you can pick out the calls. This is
also a good practice skill for dx'ing and contesting in general (for
those who may not know about the foxhunts, drop me an email an I'll
forward to you the info).I first tried this before my turn as a 'fox'
a couple of seasons ago to see how the K2 would stack up. I had been
trying just about every rig I could get my hands on because I was
having a lot of trouble as a fox picking out stations. I
thought,'well, middle age/bad hearing/ slow brain/ poor propagation/
lack of sleep must be the cause ( and they still take a toll!) so I
gave a go to various rigs to see what would help.I had built a bunch
of Wayne's kits before ( NC 40, Sierra,SST) and always liked them, so
it wasn't a hard sell to go for the K2 just for fun value, but boy
was I surprised at how well it performed compared to the big buck
rigs.
A great deal of this is also personal preference and what an
operator is used to. A really good op will always be able to wring
out a strong performance on a less than optimum rig because they
learn how to use it to best advantage.I think of the K2 as giving
middle of the road guys like me a real edge. George, if you tweak
that K2 and go with it, the rest of us don't stand a chance !:)
--
Dan Presley-N7CQR-Portland, Or QRP-L #502
***@arrl.net
George, W5YR
2004-01-23 19:23:05 UTC
Permalink
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Presley" <***@comcast.net>
To: "George, W5YR" <***@att.net>
Cc: <***@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 11:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Just how good is the K2?
Post by Dan Presley
Hey George-thanks for the kind words! To those who may not know, I
believe George is currently leading ( or very close!) in the QRP-L
foxhunt contest on 40M ( every Tuesday night ((Wed 0200-0400 UTC)
7038-42 +/-. He is a great operator, so I listen closely when he
speaks.
Dan, if we aren't careful this will turn into a mutual admiration thing!
Anyway, thanks for the kind words again. I have been almost lucky this Fox
Hunt season - couldn't hear the Fox (K5TR) near Austin, TX so missed that
one. But, as the man said, "It ain't over 'til it's over!"
Post by Dan Presley
George, I think what is different about the K2 is the design and use
as compared to other rigs. What I mean ( for me) is that it may not
have all of the filtering tools that other rigs might have, but what
it does have is the ability to hear the signals in its passband a lot
clearer and cleaner, which for my ears makes it much easier to pick
out one signal even if there's another very close by. I know it sorta
fights the logic we've all used for many years-that what is essential
is to attain 'single-signal' performance out of our rigs, but what I
see has happened with a lot of the rigs out there is the ability to
filter out the signal, but by the time you do this and 're-process'
it, so to speak,it's lost a lot of clarity and in some cases it's so
hard to actually copy it that what might have been gained in reducing
qrm is ultimately a negative result.With the K2 it doesn't bother me
nearly as much if there's a close signal because it's so much easier
and quicker to pull out the one I want, and with a lot less
fatigue.The filtering ( I use the KAF2) is still awfully good, and by
the time I kick the regular plus audio filters in I really wouldn't
want much beyond that. The signals pop right out and it's a real
pleasure even under fairly intense qrm.
Dan, you are making more and more sense. I need to really start listening
carefully with the K2 - even in its present pre-mods state - and see what I
can hear. I have noticed a different sound to the K2 when I play both it and
the PRO2 through the same external audio system. I also need to re-calibrate
and realign the filter settings, etc. Thanks for motivating me to revisit
the little grey box!

It is interesting to note that your postive informative notes about your
experience with the K2 has had a more motivating effect on me re the K2 than
all the argumentative postings and a couple of private nasties. I think that
mutual respect plays a role as well.
Post by Dan Presley
Try this for fun-on the night of the next foxhunt ( Tuesday local
date) after you bag your pelts, fire up the K2 and pretend you're the
fox and try to see how quickly you can pick out the calls.
I'll do that! I usually spend all my time listening to the Foxii and hear
the pack only when trying to find the Hound currently being worked and
deciding whether the Fox will tune up, down or not at all! <:} You should
have a 1:3 chance of being right, but I usually find that most Foxii tend to
move the dial after an exchange so they can tune up or down through the pack
looking for a call they can copy.

This is
Post by Dan Presley
also a good practice skill for dx'ing and contesting in general (for
those who may not know about the foxhunts, drop me an email an I'll
forward to you the info).I first tried this before my turn as a 'fox'
a couple of seasons ago to see how the K2 would stack up. I had been
trying just about every rig I could get my hands on because I was
having a lot of trouble as a fox picking out stations. I
thought,'well, middle age/bad hearing/ slow brain/ poor propagation/
lack of sleep must be the cause ( and they still take a toll!) so I
gave a go to various rigs to see what would help.I had built a bunch
of Wayne's kits before ( NC 40, Sierra,SST) and always liked them, so
it wasn't a hard sell to go for the K2 just for fun value, but boy
was I surprised at how well it performed compared to the big buck
rigs.
A great deal of this is also personal preference and what an
operator is used to. A really good op will always be able to wring
out a strong performance on a less than optimum rig because they
learn how to use it to best advantage.I think of the K2 as giving
middle of the road guys like me a real edge.
Well, Dan, if you are a "middle of the road" guy, I don't think I could
handle much more! <:}

George, if you tweak
Post by Dan Presley
that K2 and go with it, the rest of us don't stand a chance !:)
Tweaking coming right up!

Thanks, Dan . . .

73, George W5YR
***@att.net

Jim Brown" (Jim Brown)
2004-01-20 00:16:01 UTC
Permalink
Audio -- ,snip. With the built-in speaker, I found it
adequate, but it needed a bit of external help when driving my 8 ohm station
speaker.
This is simply the choice of the wrong loudspeaker to use with this
rig. The K2 appears to be designed to work into a 4 ohm loudspeaker,
and the one Wayne chose is a very efficient one. An 8 ohm loudspeaker
will drag 6 dB less power from the same output stage. Just by switching
to a 4 ohm loudspeaker will give you back that 6 dB.

Jim K9YC
Lee Buller
2004-01-20 04:19:09 UTC
Permalink
George,

I realize how much you use both rigs and have full understanding of the K2 and the PROII. Don't you have a PhD in K2 and PROII? I think that your comments are well justified. I appreciate your candid comments and I too will keep the PROII as the main rig, but the K2 is something I built and I find it a joy to operate. Your contributions to the discussion is appreciated.

For what the K2 is ... and is not ... it goes down in Ham Radio history along side some pretty good rigs. It is not a DX-40 or SB101, or a KWM2A,or a TS520, or a FT-101 or a IC756PROII, or what ever. It is truely a remarkable rig that can hold its own in its class...a class of its own.

Thank you for your very honest and enlightening comments.

Lee Buller
K0WA



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George, W5YR
2004-01-20 07:20:01 UTC
Permalink
Thanks, Lee, for a reasoned and rational response to my heretical seeming
"put down" of the K2, which my piece was never intended to be.

I don't know about the PhD in K2 and PRO2! <:} I suspect that Gary at
Elecraft is the person most suited to that title for the K2 part of it.

I hope that no one misunderstands what I said clearly: I love the K2 and
enjoy using it! It has a completely fitted out travel case with all
accessories, ready for the field or a trip at any time.

But, I just cannot equate my own experience with the two radios under
discussion with all the "enthusiasm" that I read on the reflectors about BDR
being the end-all of receiver performance. Important, yes. The determining
factor? Perhaps, in certain situations. I happen to have examined both these
radios in sufficient detail and gained enough experience to make the
comments that I did, and which I believe to be true.

When I can watch the spectral response of an S1 CW signal in a 150 Hz DSP IF
filter and the associated receiver noise floor in that bandwidth, and then
introduce an S9+40 dB signal just off the flank of the passband and see no
change in either the weak signal or the receiver noise floor, then I have to
believe that the PRO2 is just not the bad actor that the ARRL front-end
measurements would have us believe.

Thanks again for your kind words, Lee.

73, George W5YR
***@att.net


----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Buller" <***@swbell.net>
To: "George, W5YR" <***@att.net>
Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" <***@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Just how good is the K2?
Post by Lee Buller
George,
I realize how much you use both rigs and have full understanding of the K2
and the PROII. Don't you have a PhD in K2 and PROII? I think that your
comments are well justified. I appreciate your candid comments and I too
will keep the PROII as the main rig, but the K2 is something I built and I
find it a joy to operate. Your contributions to the discussion is
appreciated.
Post by Lee Buller
For what the K2 is ... and is not ... it goes down in Ham Radio history
along side some pretty good rigs. It is not a DX-40 or SB101, or a KWM2A,or
a TS520, or a FT-101 or a IC756PROII, or what ever. It is truely a
remarkable rig that can hold its own in its class...a class of its own.
Post by Lee Buller
Thank you for your very honest and enlightening comments.
Lee Buller
K0WA
Brendan Minish
2004-01-20 12:18:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by George, W5YR
When I can watch the spectral response of an S1 CW signal in a 150 Hz DSP IF
filter and the associated receiver noise floor in that bandwidth, and then
introduce an S9+40 dB signal just off the flank of the passband and see no
change in either the weak signal or the receiver noise floor, then I have to
believe that the PRO2 is just not the bad actor that the ARRL front-end
measurements would have us believe.
This isn't a real world test! introduce 2 or 3 9++ signals within 5 Khz and
I suspect things will not be as pretty
George, W5YR
2004-01-20 19:04:00 UTC
Permalink
Not to prolong the "mine is bigger than yours" discussion, but listening to
the major CW contests has not produced either the cacophony or the aural
fatigue that have mentioned.

Perhaps it is a combination of headphones/speakers, outboard audio system,
"old" (74 years) ears, etc. that make the difference. I have no doubt that I
fail to hear much of the higher frequency components that induce fatigue in
people with normal hearing.

Yet the IF/audio response of the PRO2 spans about 60 - 3400 Hz at the -6 dB
points with a fairly abrupt flank beyond that point, so not too many highs
are coming through that I would miss. And the K2 has a passband much more
restrictive than that for SSB. And the higher shape factors on CW would tend
to allow more high-frequency artifacts and band noise, etc. into the headset
than would the PRO2 when set to the same nominal IF bandwidth.

Brendan, in response to your lengthier email as well, I do not at all
disagree with your preference for the K2. I might share that with you if (a)
I had your hearing and (b) my K2 were equipped with the audio DSP module and
the latest mods, etc.

Remember that I was not attempting to put down the K2 in favor of the PRO2.
I merely was enquiring as to why the K2 has gained such favor as the
"preferred" station receiver, based upon BDR and IMD3 measurements, in the
face of the features and functions that it lacks in its design. You
explained quite clearly why in your case, such was the preference.

I appreciate your input and viewpoint. No one is trying to convince anyone
of the inferiority or superiority of one radio vis a vis another. As long as
each of us is pleased and can operate effectively with our preferred radio,
then all is well. As a paraphrase of another old saw "One man's bells and
whistles are another man's toolset."

73, George W5YR
***@att.net


----- Original Message -----
From: "Brendan Minish" <***@oceanfree.net>
To: "George, W5YR" <***@att.net>; "Lee Buller" <***@swbell.net>
Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" <***@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 5:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Just how good is the K2?
Post by Brendan Minish
Post by George, W5YR
When I can watch the spectral response of an S1 CW signal in a 150 Hz DSP IF
filter and the associated receiver noise floor in that bandwidth, and then
introduce an S9+40 dB signal just off the flank of the passband and see no
change in either the weak signal or the receiver noise floor, then I have to
believe that the PRO2 is just not the bad actor that the ARRL front-end
measurements would have us believe.
This isn't a real world test! introduce 2 or 3 9++ signals within 5 Khz and
I suspect things will not be as pretty
Don Melcher
2004-01-20 04:54:00 UTC
Permalink
George - W5YR wrote

"...how on CW do you deal with heterodynes without a notch filter? With
no IF shift available, how do you
deal with adjacent channel QRM other than narrowing the IF or audio
filter (if used) bandwidth?"

George - how do you deal with the IMD in CW contest pile-ups with the
PROII? That is why I just ordered my second K2 (I have 2 - 756PRO2s).
The PRO2 gets REALLY ugly. I get really fatigued listening to the PRO2
for a long period.

Before I had the K2 I had to use my old Drake R4Cs with Sherwood
mods/filters (which still might be the only thing better in the shack
then the K2 - but not as easy to operate) or my FT1000D. For SSB the
PRO2 might be fine - but in a CW contest... Fergit it.

Don
Sverre Holm
2004-01-20 07:58:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gregg Lengling
-----Original Message-----
one. An 8 ohm loudspeaker will drag 6 dB less power from the
same output stage. Just by switching to a 4 ohm loudspeaker
will give you back that 6 dB.
- like having an "audio SWR" of 1:2! not good ;)


--
73,
Sverre

------------------
Sverre Holm, LA3ZA
www.qsl.net/la3za
Don Melcher
2004-01-20 17:27:01 UTC
Permalink
Brendan Minish wrote:

"The K2 easily allows my ear to pick out a weak signal very close to a
much stronger signal. I don't find the audio of the pro2 as transparent
in this regard."

I couldn't agree more.

"I find that a 120 Hz setting on the k2 (yes the shape factor isn't as
good as the pro2) along with the DSP module set to around 100 hz is a
formidable weapon but I almost always run at around 600 or 450 Hz and
let the ears do the work, it's less tiring that way."

Ditto - it is just plain fatiguing to listen to the ProII for a CW
contest - at first I just thought I was tired - but then I realized what
the problem was. It was like being buffeted by wind. Sure - - narrowing
the filter down to a couple of hundred Hz may cut out the QRM - but it
will also cut out most stations responding to a CQ. That just doesn't
work in a contest. 600 - 800 Hz is a more realistic bandwidth - 400 Hz
is about as narrow as you can go.

George, W5YR wrote:

"When I can watch the spectral response of an S1 CW signal in a 150 Hz
DSP IF
filter and the associated receiver noise floor in that bandwidth, and
then
introduce an S9+40 dB signal just off the flank of the passband and see
no
change in either the weak signal or the receiver noise floor, then I
have to
believe that the PRO2 is just not the bad actor that the ARRL front-end
measurements would have us believe."

Brendan Minish wrote:

"This isn't a real world test! introduce 2 or 3 9++ signals within 5 KHz
and I suspect things will not be as pretty"

Exactly what I was talking about when I asked George the question about
the IMD... Stick a few strong signals within a few KHz of the desired
signal and it is cacophony.

George, W5YR wrote:

"...a reasoned and rational response to my heretical seeming
"put down" of the K2, which my piece was never intended to be."

I understand that George - and I didn't take it as such. But I don't
think MY response was irrational. I have read your writings on the
756PRO & PROII and a lot of what you say may be true under lab or
specific conditions - but I don't operate in the lab - or under specific
conditions like single strong interfering signal - that typically ISN'T
the real world at least in a contest. I am not irrational or
unreasonable - I simply disagree with your conclusions.

I own two PROIIs - they are a very nice radio with a lot of features -
but contrary to your opinion, I don't think the DSP IF filtering is the
death knell of analog radio - yet. It maybe getting close for SSB - the
notch filter on the PROII is amazing - takes a "pinning the meter"
carrier out completely. But it hurts my ears to listen to it for a long
period of time - particularly on CW. With each generation, DSP gets
better and better and I can't wait to listen to a 7800, but I wonder if
it will be worth the extra $8K. Time will tell.

73

Don
W6ZO
Earl W Cunningham
2004-01-20 21:26:02 UTC
Permalink
George, W5YR wrote:

"Remember that I was not attempting to put down the K2 in favor of the
PRO2. I merely was enquiring as to why the K2 has gained such favor as
the "preferred" station receiver, based upon BDR and IMD3 measurements,
in the face of the features and functions that it lacks in its design."
==========
Clearly the IC-756Pro2 does not have as good BDR and IMD3 figures as the
K2 (and the FT-1000MP). I have used all three radios in 160-meter CW
contests where many strong signals prevail with the following findings
(all three radios were used with their preamps turned off):

The strongest signals encountered are less than S9+40 dB and BDR has
never been a problem with any of the radios.

IMD3, which manifests itself by occasional bleeps and birdies being heard
on a clear frequency, has never never been a problem with the K2, even
with the attenuator turned off. The FT-1000MP eliminates them when I use
6 dB of attenuation. The IC-756Pro2 requires 12 dB of attenuation to
eliminate them.

My conclusion, then, is that the K2 is the best receiver of the three
with respect to IMD3, with the FT-1000MP placing second and the
IC-756Pro2 third.

Even with 12 dB of attenuation, the Pro2's receiver has adequate gain to
hear even the weakest signals with the audio gain control set to less
than 12 o'clock. The FT-1000MP's audio gain sits at wide open on those
weak signals, as does the K2's audio gain control.

So, even though the Pro2's IMD3 figures aren't as good as some other
radios, it's not a show-stopper when you are DX or contesting.

73, de Earl, K6SE
George, W5YR
2004-01-20 22:02:01 UTC
Permalink
Thanks, Earl, for reporting your experience with these radios. I think that
you have made my point that despite the "inferior" BDR and IMD3 measurements
made by ARRL on the PRO2, its other capabilities allow it to remain
competitive. Certain of its unique capabilities might, in the minds of some,
elevate it above the others, but that is an individual taste and judgment
call.In my own experience, I have never found it to be lacking in a contest
or crowded band environment. But a degree of experience and knowledge of the
radio is required on the part of the user.

As for weak signal operation, I participate regularly (and
enthusiastically!) in the QRP-L Fox Hunts where one deals with 5-watt
signals, coming frequently from less than optimal antennas, that many times
are almost right on the noise floor, be it internal or band noise. The PRO2
appears to me to equal and in most cases exceed the K2 in this environment
because of the signal manipulation tools provided by the PRO2 which are
lacking in the K2.

Addition of the audio DSP module to the K2 evidently makes up for a lot of
this difference between the K2 and the PRO2. I would expect this from my use
of an outboard DSP unit (NIR-12) on my K2. Even there, however, lack of a
manual notch filter to use on CW is a serious shortcoming. The outboard
Datong FL3 audio filter while inferior to the NIR-12 in filtering and noise
reduction has good notch and peak filter capabilities.

The point here is that with the addition of suitable filters, etc. the basic
K2 can be made into a very competent receiver which many prefer over the
more complex IF DSP models. Given these additions, the superior IMD3 and BDR
of the K2 is the basis for excellent overall performance.

73, George W5YR
***@att.net




----- Original Message -----
From: "Earl W Cunningham" <***@juno.com>
To: <***@att.net>; <***@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 2:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Just how good is the K2?
Post by Earl W Cunningham
"Remember that I was not attempting to put down the K2 in favor of the
PRO2. I merely was enquiring as to why the K2 has gained such favor as
the "preferred" station receiver, based upon BDR and IMD3 measurements,
in the face of the features and functions that it lacks in its design."
==========
Clearly the IC-756Pro2 does not have as good BDR and IMD3 figures as the
K2 (and the FT-1000MP). I have used all three radios in 160-meter CW
contests where many strong signals prevail with the following findings
The strongest signals encountered are less than S9+40 dB and BDR has
never been a problem with any of the radios.
IMD3, which manifests itself by occasional bleeps and birdies being heard
on a clear frequency, has never never been a problem with the K2, even
with the attenuator turned off. The FT-1000MP eliminates them when I use
6 dB of attenuation. The IC-756Pro2 requires 12 dB of attenuation to
eliminate them.
My conclusion, then, is that the K2 is the best receiver of the three
with respect to IMD3, with the FT-1000MP placing second and the
IC-756Pro2 third.
Even with 12 dB of attenuation, the Pro2's receiver has adequate gain to
hear even the weakest signals with the audio gain control set to less
than 12 o'clock. The FT-1000MP's audio gain sits at wide open on those
weak signals, as does the K2's audio gain control.
So, even though the Pro2's IMD3 figures aren't as good as some other
radios, it's not a show-stopper when you are DX or contesting.
73, de Earl, K6SE
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You must be subscribed to post to the list.
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Post by Earl W Cunningham
Elecraft Web Page: http://www.elecraft.com
Also see: http://www.elecraft.com/elecraft_list_guidelines.htm
Lyle Johnson
2004-01-21 00:42:25 UTC
Permalink
Hello George!
...I would expect the automatic notch feature to
become inactive on CW. Does it have then a manual
notch for that mode?
No. There is no easy way to control the tuning of a manual notch with the
K2, so there is no notch available on CW.

It is possible to put in a notch that delayed its onset, and noted if the
signal to be notched is steady (notch it) or keying on and off (CW signal,
don't notch). Good project for the KDSP2 Open Source Experimenters...

73,

Lyle KK7P
George, W5YR
2004-01-21 00:49:07 UTC
Permalink
Thanks, Lyle - sounds like a worthwhile addition.

73, George W5YR
***@att.net


----- Original Message -----
From: "Lyle Johnson" <***@fidalgo.net>
To: <***@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 5:43 PM
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Just how good is the K2?
Post by Lyle Johnson
Hello George!
...I would expect the automatic notch feature to
become inactive on CW. Does it have then a manual
notch for that mode?
No. There is no easy way to control the tuning of a manual notch with the
K2, so there is no notch available on CW.
It is possible to put in a notch that delayed its onset, and noted if the
signal to be notched is steady (notch it) or keying on and off (CW signal,
don't notch). Good project for the KDSP2 Open Source Experimenters...
73,
Lyle KK7P
_______________________________________________
You must be subscribed to post to the list.
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Post by Lyle Johnson
Elecraft Web Page: http://www.elecraft.com
Also see: http://www.elecraft.com/elecraft_list_guidelines.htm
Don Melcher
2004-01-21 02:09:00 UTC
Permalink
Lyle Johnson wrote:

"It is possible to put in a notch that delayed its onset, and noted if the
signal to be notched is steady (notch it) or keying on and off (CW signal,
don't notch). Good project for the KDSP2 Open Source Experimenters..."

I believe that is how the Clear Speech and Hear-it DSP units work. The
Hear-it installed in my FT817 is one of the best I have found, the Clear
Speech being the second best.

Don
VR2BrettGraham
2004-01-21 03:05:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Floyd Sense" (Floyd Sense)
Post by Floyd Sense" (Floyd Sense)
6. Driving an amplifier: The K2, with its current level of firmware in
the...
I have never had the slightest problem driving my Acom 1000 with the K2.
the Acom 1k is a full QSK amp and requires around 70W drive for full
output, personally I have no need for ALC with this setup.
Exactly the opposite experience here - none of my amps really likes my
K2 (though will admit to not doing mod yet). Between mod & upcoming
firmware, I would expect those who are seeing this to join the lucky folks
who don't.

73, VR2BrettGraham
Hank Kohl K8DD
2004-01-21 04:12:00 UTC
Permalink
When I use an amp, I use an AL-1200. The only thing so far that has
cured it (even with the beta firmware) is the circuit on K6XX's website ....
http://www.k6xx.com/radio/fastrely.html
Since I built it on a little terminal strip and plugged it into the amp there
have been no shutdowns.

73 Hank K8DD
Post by VR2BrettGraham
Post by Floyd Sense" (Floyd Sense)
Post by Floyd Sense" (Floyd Sense)
6. Driving an amplifier: The K2, with its current level of firmware in
the...
I have never had the slightest problem driving my Acom 1000 with the K2.
the Acom 1k is a full QSK amp and requires around 70W drive for full
output, personally I have no need for ALC with this setup.
Exactly the opposite experience here - none of my amps really likes my
K2 (though will admit to not doing mod yet). Between mod & upcoming
firmware, I would expect those who are seeing this to join the lucky folks
who don't.
73, VR2BrettGraham
Brendan Minish
2004-01-21 23:55:00 UTC
Permalink
... the circuit on K6XX's website ....
http://www.k6xx.com/radio/fastrely.html
totally off topic but..

This little speedup circuit also works great for running 24 volt relays
from 12v supplies IF you can live with normal speed. Can be a very useful
trick at times ;-)

73
Brendan
VR2BrettGraham
2004-01-21 07:47:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank Kohl K8DD
Post by VR2BrettGraham
Post by Floyd Sense" (Floyd Sense)
Post by Floyd Sense" (Floyd Sense)
6. Driving an amplifier: The K2, with its current level of firmware
in the...
I have never had the slightest problem driving my Acom 1000 with the K2.
the Acom 1k is a full QSK amp and requires around 70W drive for full
output, personally I have no need for ALC with this setup.
Exactly the opposite experience here - none of my amps really likes my
K2 (though will admit to not doing mod yet). Between mod & upcoming
firmware, I would expect those who are seeing this to join the lucky folks
who don't.
When I use an amp, I use an AL-1200. The only thing so far that has
cured it (even with the beta firmware) is the circuit on K6XX's website ....
http://www.k6xx.com/radio/fastrely.html
Since I built it on a little terminal strip and plugged it into the amp there
have been no shutdowns.
In addition to the mod for power level fluctuations (which turn into something
of the order of ~200 watts on my K2/100 downstream of the GU74B's anode)
& the eagerly awaited firmware release that does a few other things to power
level behavior, both my ACOM 1k & Ten-Tec 420E (both QSK amps) have
made the K2 think it was dealing with something using slow, open-frame
relays.

These amps don't switch slowly. For my other amps that are slow, there is
a line available for the rig which asserts PTT before going keydown. Same line
is used to trigger PTT for voice, but must be disconnected for CW on the K2 &
the result is return of sequencing problem that has never ever been a problem -
even with clunky relay amp being driven by clunky relay rigs.

ALC would be nice, but probably not necessary for a well-behaved K2. If one
does a lot of band hopping, then the toned-down power ramp-up after a band
change will be helpful - as well as less aggressive cut back due to SWR. This
leaves the PTT/DOT thing, which I still don't understand the benefit of -
no PTT
control of rig in CW & having to muck about with cables when switching modes
only gives me more opportunities to practice colorful expressions in Cantonese
& I have enough of those already. ;^)

73, VR2BrettGraham
Mike McCoy
2004-01-21 03:50:00 UTC
Permalink
But I just have a hard time getting over this six pound box the size=20
of, well, small.
And for me, therein lies its true beauty... After I returned to amateur =
radio I did so with a vengeance. I'm a big 'knobs/dials' kinda guy so =
before I knew it I had literally covered half a wall with all the =
knobs/dials one could ever want but I was flat out of room. Big stuff =
too (totally complete Yaesu 101ZD & Icom 751A stations, QRO amp, museum =
quality HQ-180A, etc.).=20

After a year of feeling like I was in the factory scene in Metropolis I =
sold it all and now I'm down to my lil ol K2 'riglet', an SWR meter, a =
Timewave DSP, Motorola speaker, headphones, hand held mic & paddle (with =
a few other accessories standing by in the bag for portable ops). And no =
regrets whatsoever.

I'm now actually PROUD that my full featured, primary (nay ONLY) station =
occupies about a cubic foot of space, ready (and able) go with me =
anywhere and can operate virtually continuously (via solar + batts) =
without any available AC!
I have pretty much settled on a Yaesu FT-1000 MP Mk V Field,=20
or a used TenTec Omni VI+ if I can find one, but there is still=20
that voice that says "K2".
Use the force Luke!
I need some pretty hard convincing. I just built a K1, and while I =
have=20
yet to get the transmitter pumping, the rest of the rig is every bit =
what=20
I was looking for.
So construction concerns are not a issue/barrier. It thus boils down to =
style. Notwithstanding the evolution I went thru above I am really just =
a casual op, purely it only for the fun. Thus I can't speak from the =
point of view of the 'pro' amateurs out there but I'd still submit you =
just cannot go wrong with a K2 as the 'fun factor' starts when you =
receive the box 'o parts (and never seems to end even after =
construction)!

And if the stars were to smile down on me and provide me 'unlimited' =
funds to buy almost any rig I might possibly want I STILL would have my =
K2 (and as far as I can tell, always will).

73,
Mike K5PU
K2 sn# 2602

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K6CTW
2004-01-21 07:09:00 UTC
Permalink
Brad,

I think the K2 is the far better radio than the Yaesu FT1000-MP Field for
general ham radio use. I have the FT1000MP with the InRad mod to the front
end and the keying mod (to clean that up) and every crystal/mechanical filter
that Yaesu makes in it for the 1st and 2nd IF and even the 500 Hz filter in
the secondary receiver and the super stability VCO. It is an exceptional
contest radio, but it still does not quite equal the receiver in my K2. This
is especially noticable around very strong stations, where the "bleed thru"
on the FT1000 is not a problem on the K2. Also, the DSP unit makes this
receiver even better. Thus for QRP contesting, the rig I choose is the K2.

For SWL, the easy frequency agility of the Yaesu FT1000-MP and the
synchronous AM makes this a great AM receiver. Also, for chasing DX, where
they are running splits, the FT1000 is much nicer to use with the headphone
audio from both receivers available simultaneously (my only wish to make the
K2 perfect). I also like the FT1000-MP for RTTY/AMTOR where, with my PK232 it
is a real winner.

If I had only one radio though, it would be the K2/100 because you really
can't live on QRP alone. Add in the superb noise blanker, SSB, 160
Meter/Second Receive antenna, and DSP and you will have a radio that will
still be tops for years to come. And the best part is that you can
fix/modify it yourself!

Good luck on whatever you choose, but definitely give us K2 folks a shout
when you hear us on.

73,

Ken Miller K6CTW/VE7CTW
Sverre Holm
2004-01-21 16:04:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Linn
Mine came today and was Number 4001
4001 K2's in 5 years ~ 2.2 per day,
- and probably much more than that now, compared to the beginning!

Congratulations, Eric and Wayne, your startup company is a success!

(I wish mine were as successful, but that't another story)

--
73,
Sverre

------------------
Sverre Holm, LA3ZA
www.qsl.net/la3za
DAVE HEALY
2004-01-23 14:24:00 UTC
Permalink
Here's a view from a =
'not-really-technical'....'operates-only-every-sunspot-peak'....'challeng=
ed audio perception'...and "just-wants-a-clear-sound" guy" :

....About six months ago I bought a used ICOM IC-746 and thought it =
sounded fine.

This was a unit that that was hotted-up once and stored as a spare from =
the previous owner. It still had the protectant film on the LCD screen. =
No reason to believe it wasn't an 'as-from-factory product'.

About a month ago I built the K2.

Been using the 746 to test various functions of the K2. Boy, SSB sure =
sounded tinny on the 746. CW was readable. Lotsa buttons and switches =
on the 746, but none really improved the captured audio.

Must be a problem with the K2, yes?

So, my buddy let me borrow his (just aligned) Kenwood 940SAT.

Sounded better than the 746, but not as good as the K2.

Surely these commercial high-end rigs must be better than this little =
box that I built? Something must be array. I'd better listen awhile =
and think this out....

Well, tonight there was a KG4 on 7237KHz from Guantonimo bay with a =
pile-up. Heard him FB with the K2. Switched to the 746 and he was =
there, but tinny and with a lower level. Moved the antenna to the 940 =
and he was better, but you had to strain to pick up the words.....It was =
difficult. Back to the K2: solid copy.

Decided tonight to:

1. Return the 940 to my buddy this weekend
2. Send the 746 in for alignment
3. Keep the K2 as my main rig


I present this observation for the folks that, like me, JUST WANT TO =
HEAR THE SIGNAL WELL, regardless of all the technical specifications; =
price; appearance, etc.

For me, the K2 does it better.

-dave healy- N7DKK, Medford, Oregon



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