Discussion:
[Elecraft] Headphones
Bill Ross
2011-07-09 21:17:51 UTC
Permalink
Because of a hearing loss, (I wear hearing aids) I find that wearing headphones with the K3 (and another radios) works better for me. However, I have noticed that I get more volume out of the built-in speaker than the various headsets I have. With the headsets on, I find I am running the volume control just about at max most of the time, with RF gain also at max. One of the headsets I use, is an old RS ?HI-FI? pair that cost $40. way back when, and yet, are less sensitive than my Sony ear buds. Also, for some reason, the RS headset must have a low freq. cutoff near the 600 Hz side tone, as I get more of a ?thump? than a sine wave tone out of them. The Sony ear buds, work better, (more volume than the RS ones, even without my aids in) , and the side tone sounds better, than the RS ?HI-FI? headset, but, still less than the built-in speaker.

Does anyone have any experience with the ?communications type headphones sold by AES and other ham radio dealers, or that advertise in QST, CQ, etc.?

Would appreciate any guidance or advice from someone who?s ?been there?.

Tnx and 73

Bill, k6mgo
Barry Simpson
2011-07-10 00:33:16 UTC
Permalink
Hi Bill

I have been a long time user of a pair of Yaesu YH-77STA headphones. They
provide more volume than the various other Sony and Heil headphones that I
have and they are very comfortable to wear.

73

Barry VK2BJ
Post by Bill Ross
Because of a hearing loss, (I wear hearing aids) I find that wearing
headphones with the K3 (and another radios) works better for me. However, I
have noticed that I get more volume out of the built-in speaker than the
various headsets I have. With the headsets on, I find I am running the
volume control just about at max most of the time, with RF gain also at max.
One of the headsets I use, is an old RS ?HI-FI? pair that cost $40. way
back when, and yet, are less sensitive than my Sony ear buds. Also, for
some reason, the RS headset must have a low freq. cutoff near the 600 Hz
side tone, as I get more of a ?thump? than a sine wave tone out of them. The
Sony ear buds, work better, (more volume than the RS ones, even without my
aids in) , and the side tone sounds better, than the RS ?HI-FI? headset,
but, still less than the built-in speaker.
Does anyone have any experience with the ?communications type headphones
sold by AES and other ham radio dealers, or that advertise in QST, CQ, etc.?
Would appreciate any guidance or advice from someone who?s ?been there?.
Tnx and 73
Bill, k6mgo
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KE8G
2011-07-10 01:36:25 UTC
Permalink
Bill,

I, too, am somewhat at a hearing deficit - loud tool & die shop work, but
not yet at the hearing aid stage.

I know folks are going to say I am crazy, flame proof suit on, when I tell
you that I use a set of Frisby (model FHP-100) headphones with my K3 and
they work FANTASTIC!!. Best part is, they are cheap, I mean very cheap, I'm
talking $10-$15 cheap! I bought 3 pair of them and unfortunately had to go
to the second pair, as my youngest puppy snuck into the shack and decided to
chew on the padded ear pieces.

Now, I only run CW, so that might be the reason they work for me. I usually
have the AF gain some where around the 9:00 position, and RF is adjusted
according to the band, but never max. The headphones have a volume
adjustment inline that I use rather than moving the AF gain.

They also have a mike boom attached, and I have used it on 2 meter FM, with
local folks telling me that I sound very natural.

For what they cost, I would recommend you give them a try and if you don't
like them you are not out much. Heck, you can contact me off line, and I'll
buy them from you if you don't like them. You'll be out nothing other than
the time trying them.

Okay, enough said on this subject. Have a nice weekend.

73 de Jim - KE8G

Flame proof suit off!


----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry Simpson" <vk2bj at optusnet.com.au>
To: "Bill Ross" <k6mgo at verizon.net>
Cc: <elecraft at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 8:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Headphones


Hi Bill

I have been a long time user of a pair of Yaesu YH-77STA headphones. They
provide more volume than the various other Sony and Heil headphones that I
have and they are very comfortable to wear.

73

Barry VK2BJ
Post by Bill Ross
Because of a hearing loss, (I wear hearing aids) I find that wearing
headphones with the K3 (and another radios) works better for me. However, I
have noticed that I get more volume out of the built-in speaker than the
various headsets I have. With the headsets on, I find I am running the
volume control just about at max most of the time, with RF gain also at max.
One of the headsets I use, is an old RS ?HI-FI? pair that cost $40. way
back when, and yet, are less sensitive than my Sony ear buds. Also, for
some reason, the RS headset must have a low freq. cutoff near the 600 Hz
side tone, as I get more of a ?thump? than a sine wave tone out of them. The
Sony ear buds, work better, (more volume than the RS ones, even without my
aids in) , and the side tone sounds better, than the RS ?HI-FI? headset,
but, still less than the built-in speaker.
Does anyone have any experience with the ?communications type headphones
sold by AES and other ham radio dealers, or that advertise in QST, CQ, etc.?
Would appreciate any guidance or advice from someone who?s ?been there?.
Tnx and 73
Bill, k6mgo
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Lew Phelps K6LMP
2011-07-10 06:12:35 UTC
Permalink
I recently began wearing hearing aids myself, so I know what you're going through. You have to remove hearing aids to use conventional headphones, or else you get audio feedback screeching. When you remove hearing aids, if you're like most people, you lose ability to hear higher frequencies, which is the range in which consonants reside, and from which we discern the meaning of speech. (vowels are about 300-600 Hz, but we don't extract much meaning from vowel sounds.)

As a first step, adjust the audio receive profile to give a some boost to frequencies up to 1kHz and a lot of boost to higher frequencies.. This will offset the increased hearing loss at higher frequencies that most people with hearing loss experience, and restore ability to discern consonants. Unfortunately, this also can increase background noise levels.

IF that doesn't do the job, other possible solutions include:

1. Hearing aid compatible headphones such as the Geemarc CLA3 Hearing Aid Compatible Headset (haven't tried)
2. Bluetooth adapter. Many modern hearing aids have Bluetooth connectivity, so you can use them as headphones with a Bluetooth headset dongle. Google on "bluetooth audio dongle 3.5" and you'll come up with quite a few, ranging in price from about #$20 to $40, that will plug into the headset jack and convert the audio output to a Bluetooth signal, which you can hear directly through any Bluetooth enabled hearing aid. I haven't tried this, but I plan to do obtain one very soon.
3. Have you tried speakers and hearing aids combined? If that doesn't work, your hearing aids probably need adjustment or replacement.
4. If you want to use conventional headphones without your hearing aids, put a small stereo amplifier inline between line out output of your rig and your headphones. Preferably, use an amp with equalizer controls, and boost the higher frequencies commensurate with your hearing loss profile.

Hope this helps.

Lew K6LMP
Post by Bill Ross
Because of a hearing loss, (I wear hearing aids) I find that wearing headphones with the K3 (and another radios) works better for me. However, I have noticed that I get more volume out of the built-in speaker than the various headsets I have. With the headsets on, I find I am running the volume control just about at max most of the time, with RF gain also at max. One of the headsets I use, is an old RS ?HI-FI? pair that cost $40. way back when, and yet, are less sensitive than my Sony ear buds. Also, for some reason, the RS headset must have a low freq. cutoff near the 600 Hz side tone, as I get more of a ?thump? than a sine wave tone out of them. The Sony ear buds, work better, (more volume than the RS ones, even without my aids in) , and the side tone sounds better, than the RS ?HI-FI? headset, but, still less than the built-in speaker.
Does anyone have any experience with the ?communications type headphones sold by AES and other ham radio dealers, or that advertise in QST, CQ, etc.?
Would appreciate any guidance or advice from someone who?s ?been there?.
Tnx and 73
Bill, k6mgo
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Edward R. Cole
2011-07-10 17:46:33 UTC
Permalink
Lew and Bill,

You are both lucky if you can wear headphones without using your
hearing aids to copy signals well. I am nearly deaf without
mine. Increasing volume does not add comprehension. My hearing is
<35 dB in both ears with roll off to nothing above 800-Hz.

But I use a pair of Sony stereo headphones MDR-V600 that have a soft
cuff the covers the ears completely. My hearing aids are Phonic
Silvia over-the-ear models with two mics for noise cancelling (spendy
- cost $2600/ea.). But they do not feedback when I wear
headphones. When I fly I wear a pair of Bose nose-cancelling
headphones. They do have a T-coil mode for use with telephones but I
find that it does not work well. At home we have Panasonic 5-GHz
cordless phones with speakerphone. That works very
nice. Fortunately, I do not work the 5760 MHz ham band.

My problem is if I wear the headphones for hours there is some
physical discomfort from the headphones pressing my ear and hearing
aid, so I often remove the hearing aids when flying. Of course then
my hearing is about -60dB and I hear nothing.

I have followed the critiques on the reflector for headset-boom mics
but have not bought any. Mostly the reports are on audio performance
and not comfort.

73, Ed - KL7uW
------------------------------

Message: 31
Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2011 23:12:35 -0700
From: Lew Phelps K6LMP <k6lmp at me.com>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Headphones
To: Elecraft Reflector <elecraft at mailman.qth.net>
Message-ID: <18FDEDDB-AF29-4B5B-A6A6-8ACD07DED2E5 at me.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252

I recently began wearing hearing aids myself, so I know what you're
going through. You have to remove hearing aids to use conventional
headphones, or else you get audio feedback screeching. When you
remove hearing aids, if you're like most people, you lose ability to
hear higher frequencies, which is the range in which consonants
reside, and from which we discern the meaning of speech. (vowels are
about 300-600 Hz, but we don't extract much meaning from vowel sounds.)

As a first step, adjust the audio receive profile to give a some
boost to frequencies up to 1kHz and a lot of boost to higher
frequencies.. This will offset the increased hearing loss at higher
frequencies that most people with hearing loss experience, and
restore ability to discern consonants. Unfortunately, this also can
increase background noise levels.

IF that doesn't do the job, other possible solutions include:

1. Hearing aid compatible headphones such as the Geemarc CLA3 Hearing
Aid Compatible Headset (haven't tried)
2. Bluetooth adapter. Many modern hearing aids have Bluetooth
connectivity, so you can use them as headphones with a Bluetooth
headset dongle. Google on "bluetooth audio dongle 3.5" and you'll
come up with quite a few, ranging in price from about #$20 to $40,
that will plug into the headset jack and convert the audio output to
a Bluetooth signal, which you can hear directly through any Bluetooth
enabled hearing aid. I haven't tried this, but I plan to do obtain
one very soon.
3. Have you tried speakers and hearing aids combined? If that doesn't
work, your hearing aids probably need adjustment or replacement.
4. If you want to use conventional headphones without your hearing
aids, put a small stereo amplifier inline between line out output of
your rig and your headphones. Preferably, use an amp with equalizer
controls, and boost the higher frequencies commensurate with your
hearing loss profile.

Hope this helps.

Lew K6LMP




73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
======================================
BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com
EME: 50-1.1kw?, 144-1.4kw, 432-100w, 1296-60w, 3400-?
DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubususa at gmail.com
======================================
Chuck Shefflette
2011-07-10 18:16:23 UTC
Permalink
Although I don't have hearing issues serious enough to warrant hearing aids, I do like wearing headphones and spent quite a while finding any that were as comfortable as the multi-hundred dollar ones we used to use in the military years ago. I settled on a Yamaha CM-500 headset as I do a fair amount of phone and CW. I used them on Field Day this year - the first time I had used them for more than a short period since I purchased them. I have to say that the audio was wonderful and they were very comfortable. The CM-500 microphone works very well. I use the same TX equalizer settings I use for the Elecraft hand mic and have received several unsolicited reports of very good audio which is even more satisfying since much of my work is, by choice, QRP or at least power levels below 25W.

For about $50, the Yamaha headset is certainly worth a look.

73, Chuck - AA3CS
Post by Edward R. Cole
Lew and Bill,
You are both lucky if you can wear headphones without using your
hearing aids to copy signals well. I am nearly deaf without
mine. Increasing volume does not add comprehension. My hearing is
<35 dB in both ears with roll off to nothing above 800-Hz.
But I use a pair of Sony stereo headphones MDR-V600 that have a soft
cuff the covers the ears completely. My hearing aids are Phonic
Silvia over-the-ear models with two mics for noise cancelling (spendy
- cost $2600/ea.). But they do not feedback when I wear
headphones. When I fly I wear a pair of Bose nose-cancelling
headphones. They do have a T-coil mode for use with telephones but I
find that it does not work well. At home we have Panasonic 5-GHz
cordless phones with speakerphone. That works very
nice. Fortunately, I do not work the 5760 MHz ham band.
My problem is if I wear the headphones for hours there is some
physical discomfort from the headphones pressing my ear and hearing
aid, so I often remove the hearing aids when flying. Of course then
my hearing is about -60dB and I hear nothing.
I have followed the critiques on the reflector for headset-boom mics
but have not bought any. Mostly the reports are on audio performance
and not comfort.
73, Ed - KL7uW
------------------------------
Message: 31
Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2011 23:12:35 -0700
From: Lew Phelps K6LMP <k6lmp at me.com>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Headphones
To: Elecraft Reflector <elecraft at mailman.qth.net>
Message-ID: <18FDEDDB-AF29-4B5B-A6A6-8ACD07DED2E5 at me.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
I recently began wearing hearing aids myself, so I know what you're
going through. You have to remove hearing aids to use conventional
headphones, or else you get audio feedback screeching. When you
remove hearing aids, if you're like most people, you lose ability to
hear higher frequencies, which is the range in which consonants
reside, and from which we discern the meaning of speech. (vowels are
about 300-600 Hz, but we don't extract much meaning from vowel sounds.)
As a first step, adjust the audio receive profile to give a some
boost to frequencies up to 1kHz and a lot of boost to higher
frequencies.. This will offset the increased hearing loss at higher
frequencies that most people with hearing loss experience, and
restore ability to discern consonants. Unfortunately, this also can
increase background noise levels.
1. Hearing aid compatible headphones such as the Geemarc CLA3 Hearing
Aid Compatible Headset (haven't tried)
2. Bluetooth adapter. Many modern hearing aids have Bluetooth
connectivity, so you can use them as headphones with a Bluetooth
headset dongle. Google on "bluetooth audio dongle 3.5" and you'll
come up with quite a few, ranging in price from about #$20 to $40,
that will plug into the headset jack and convert the audio output to
a Bluetooth signal, which you can hear directly through any Bluetooth
enabled hearing aid. I haven't tried this, but I plan to do obtain
one very soon.
3. Have you tried speakers and hearing aids combined? If that doesn't
work, your hearing aids probably need adjustment or replacement.
4. If you want to use conventional headphones without your hearing
aids, put a small stereo amplifier inline between line out output of
your rig and your headphones. Preferably, use an amp with equalizer
controls, and boost the higher frequencies commensurate with your
hearing loss profile.
Hope this helps.
Lew K6LMP
73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
======================================
BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com
EME: 50-1.1kw?, 144-1.4kw, 432-100w, 1296-60w, 3400-?
DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubususa at gmail.com
======================================
______________________________________________________________
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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Jim Brown
2011-07-10 20:01:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward R. Cole
I have followed the critiques on the reflector for headset-boom mics
but have not bought any. Mostly the reports are on audio performance
and not comfort.
Hi Ed,

The Yamaha CM500 is quite comfortable. In the 18 months so that I've
owned mine, it's become my only radio headset, and I often do weekend
contests that keep me in the chair for 15-20 hours (and sometimes as
long as 30 hours) in a weekend. The large Sony phones (MDR7506 and the
consumer MDR equivalent) are also quite comfortable.

Some thoughts about using headphones WITHIOUT your hearing aids in
place. The condition you've described of very strong loss of hearing
above 500-1,000 Hz is characteristic of the vast majority of people with
enough hearing loss to use (or need) a hearing aid, but the details of
the response shape varies greatly depending on many factors, including
the noise to which the victim has been exposed over the years, and
various medical/physical factors.

A good hearing aid will include equalization customized to the hearing
loss of each ear to try to restore something approaching "normal
hearing." The RXEQ section of the K3's signal processing can take a
major step in this direction. A hearing impaired user should set the
lower four frequency bands to their lowest settings and boost the top
two bands. Since ham communications, by their nature, have limited
audio bandwidth, there's no benefit from boosting frequencies higher
than 4kHz.

One thing I WOULD strongly suggest, if it's practical, is for Elecraft
to add an optional DSP setting for hearing impaired individuals that
would do some simple but strong low-cut and some general contouring of
the spectrum above 500 Hz.

In general, the biggest single thing we can do to improve speech
intelligibility is to minimize the bass content (below about 350-400 Hz)
so that these sounds, which do NOT contribute to speech intelligibility,
don't waste audio power that can be used for the higher frequency sounds
that DO carry intelligibility.

73, Jim K9YC
Kjeld Holm
2011-07-11 14:25:34 UTC
Permalink
Dear All,



For your information



The Danish company Phonak are selling a device under the name of TVLink
which plugs into the line out, Scart, headphone or external speaker
connector and from it's console sends in stereo to your hearing aids. I have
not tried it yet - so I cannot say anything about how it performs. The price
is 3000 DKK around 450 EUR.



Vy de

OZ1CCM, Kjeld



-----Original Message-----
From: elecraft-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jim Brown
Sent: 10. juli 2011 22:02
To: elecraft at mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Headphones
Post by Edward R. Cole
I have followed the critiques on the reflector for headset-boom mics
but have not bought any. Mostly the reports are on audio performance
and not comfort.
Hi Ed,



The Yamaha CM500 is quite comfortable. In the 18 months so that I've owned
mine, it's become my only radio headset, and I often do weekend contests
that keep me in the chair for 15-20 hours (and sometimes as long as 30
hours) in a weekend. The large Sony phones (MDR7506 and the consumer MDR
equivalent) are also quite comfortable.



Some thoughts about using headphones WITHIOUT your hearing aids in place.
The condition you've described of very strong loss of hearing above
500-1,000 Hz is characteristic of the vast majority of people with enough
hearing loss to use (or need) a hearing aid, but the details of the response
shape varies greatly depending on many factors, including the noise to which
the victim has been exposed over the years, and various medical/physical
factors.



A good hearing aid will include equalization customized to the hearing
loss of each ear to try to restore something approaching "normal hearing."
The RXEQ section of the K3's signal processing can take a major step in this
direction. A hearing impaired user should set the lower four frequency bands
to their lowest settings and boost the top two bands. Since ham
communications, by their nature, have limited audio bandwidth, there's no
benefit from boosting frequencies higher than 4kHz.



One thing I WOULD strongly suggest, if it's practical, is for Elecraft to
add an optional DSP setting for hearing impaired individuals that would do
some simple but strong low-cut and some general contouring of the spectrum
above 500 Hz.



In general, the biggest single thing we can do to improve speech
intelligibility is to minimize the bass content (below about 350-400 Hz) so
that these sounds, which do NOT contribute to speech intelligibility, don't
waste audio power that can be used for the higher frequency sounds that DO
carry intelligibility.



73, Jim K9YC

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Phil Kane
2011-07-11 15:47:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kjeld Holm
The Danish company Phonak are selling a device under the name of
TVLink which plugs into the line out, Scart, headphone or
external speaker connector and from it's console sends in stereo
to your hearing aids. I have not tried it yet - so I cannot say
anything about how it performs. The price is 3000 DKK around 450
EUR.
Thank you very much for this information. I am looking for
something like that for use with my scanner when I am
travelling. The "dongles" that I have seen on line only seem to
have a 2 hour battery life at the most.

I will be receiving my Phonak hearing-aids later this month and
after I get used to them I will look into whether the TVLink
will suit my needs.


-- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402
Barry
2011-07-11 01:02:40 UTC
Permalink
My favorite headphones are Sony MDR-W08. They were $9.99 at Wal-mart. They
go in the ear and are comfortable even for (almost) full-time use in a 48h
contest.

--
View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Headphones-tp6568191p6569196.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Edward R. Cole
2011-07-11 06:54:49 UTC
Permalink
Jim and others:

I appreciate your suggestions and observations...but my hearing loss
is not just one of intensity and frequency. As typical of many with
hearing loss, I have loss many of the inner ear structure that
reproduce sound. So the sound can be loud enough over wide enough
spectrum and still be unrecognisable. The way I like to illustrate
this is to say you take a knife to your favorite high fidelity
speaker and shred the hell out of it. No amount of volume increase
and egualization will restore good sound out that speaker. It
probably will sputter and buzz and thump and give the awfullest crappy sound.

My hearing aids are computer programmed by my audiologist with each
ear taylored for its needs. It is a 22-channel DSP system with two
mics in each hearing aid so noise-cancelling and anti-echo programs
run. It has a two-stage AGC system with different response times in
programs. I have four separate software programs to chose for
different hearing situations. For TV and Ham radio I chose the flat
wide-spectrum "music" mode as if gives the crispest sound. There is
significant differences for each ear, so using one equalization
profile will not work as well.

So the best solution for me is using headphones with my hearing aids
when signals are weak or QRM is high. Any good fidelity stereo
headset that is physically comfortable works. Many headsets press on
the ears and do not fit around the ear. The physical pressure on the
ear with the hearing aid between it and the head causes that to hurt
after awhile. If the hearing aid cuff were to press directly on the
head and not touch the ear it would be much more comfortable. But
most are not designed for hearing aid wearer, just like not all TV or
movies are captioned. I do not watch uncaptioned TV/movies.

Those with handicaps learn to adapt as people around them are not
able to understand the problem. But if you lost a arm or leg or are
blind there are visual clues for others to recognize. There is
nothing to indicate a person is hard of hearing. Interestingly, most
people miss the fact that I am wearing hearing aids, or if the did
they assume it "cures" my hearing problems. there is no cure for hearing loss.

I still cannot understand a person who is not facing me or is in
another room. If it is a crowded room I hear everything and nothing
(ultimate QRM). In a noisy location is near impossible. If I am
watching TV and my wife says something I usually have ask her to
repeat it as I was concentrating on what was on TV.

Thanks
Ed - KL7UW

------------------------------

Message: 23
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 13:01:54 -0700
From: Jim Brown <jim at audiosystemsgroup.com>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Headphones
To: elecraft at mailman.qth.net
Message-ID: <4E1A0532.7030107 at audiosystemsgroup.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Post by Edward R. Cole
I have followed the critiques on the reflector for headset-boom mics
but have not bought any. Mostly the reports are on audio performance
and not comfort.
Hi Ed,

The Yamaha CM500 is quite comfortable. In the 18 months so that I've
owned mine, it's become my only radio headset, and I often do weekend
contests that keep me in the chair for 15-20 hours (and sometimes as
long as 30 hours) in a weekend. The large Sony phones (MDR7506 and the
consumer MDR equivalent) are also quite comfortable.

Some thoughts about using headphones WITHIOUT your hearing aids in
place. The condition you've described of very strong loss of hearing
above 500-1,000 Hz is characteristic of the vast majority of people with
enough hearing loss to use (or need) a hearing aid, but the details of
the response shape varies greatly depending on many factors, including
the noise to which the victim has been exposed over the years, and
various medical/physical factors.

A good hearing aid will include equalization customized to the hearing
loss of each ear to try to restore something approaching "normal
hearing." The RXEQ section of the K3's signal processing can take a
major step in this direction. A hearing impaired user should set the
lower four frequency bands to their lowest settings and boost the top
two bands. Since ham communications, by their nature, have limited
audio bandwidth, there's no benefit from boosting frequencies higher
than 4kHz.
======snipped



73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
======================================
BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com
EME: 50-1.1kw?, 144-1.4kw, 432-100w, 1296-60w, 3400-?
DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubususa at gmail.com
======================================
Jim Brown
2011-07-11 16:15:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward R. Cole
I appreciate your suggestions and observations...but my hearing loss
is not just one of intensity and frequency.
Ed,

I understand your more severe hearing loss, but I was responding IN PART
to many others on the list with much less several loss than you, and can
use RXEQ to solve their own problems, at least until their hearing loss
progresses.

As a Fellow of the Audio Engineering Society, I also understand the
issues with headphones fitting hearing aids, just as I also understand
the DIFFERENCES between hearing loss and hearing aids.

Etymotic Research, one of the major mfrs of signal processing for
hearing aids of the type you wear, has long been a supporter of the
Chicago Section of the AES, and their engineers are active in that
section and made excellent technical presentations to the section. Until
I moved to CA in 2006, I was an active member of that Section. Nearly 10
years ago, my colleague Bob Schulein (who was the designer of the Shure
SM57 and SM58 and by then joined Etymotic) presented his work on the
development of directional mics for hearing aids.

It's really good that you have raised these issues in detail, because
the physical design of a hearing aid has major impact on whether it CAN
work with headphones -- that is, where are the sensors, and are there
headphones that can comfortably be worn with them in place. This is an
important question that any of us must resolve when BUYING a hearing aid.

I suspect that any good headphones that WILL fit will work reasonably
well if they are also sufficiently comfortable. That was the reason for
my comments responding to a question (don't remember if it was yours)
about comfort and the CM500s. These ARE circumaural phones, so they
might fit you. Ditto for the Sony 7506.

73, Jim Brown K9YC
Fred Jensen
2011-07-11 18:32:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Brown
Ed,
I understand your more severe hearing loss, but I was responding IN PART
to many others on the list with much less several loss than you, and can
use RXEQ to solve their own problems, at least until their hearing loss
progresses.
I appreciate this thread. I too am both nearly deaf, and even with
level and frequency correction, I can't understand someone speaking
behind me. My loss occurred all at once from an RPG explosion one
night, and I've been told "the rocks on your hair cells are gone" so it
affects my sense of balance as well.

The latest hearing aids the VA gave me are Phonak multi-program DSP
gizmos, and are many light years ahead of anything else I've had. They
run at "afterburner roar" and do not work under the Heil Proset I got
from Elecraft. However I do get to walk around with $6K of fairly
effective micro-electronics stuffed into my ears thanks to very generous
American taxpayers. Thank you all, I hope I deserve it.

SSB has been pretty much a non-starter since my hearing disappeared, and
I stick to CW most of the time. On Jim's patient advice [we know each
other], I have been able to tailor the K3 Rx EQ to get an overall range
of about 30 dB differential correction, and SSB on a quiet band, without
QRM and accents, has become semi-usable for me -- first time in 40
years. 75 or 80 dB of correction would be better, but the 30 or so does
really help.

It took some time to work it out, and the final settings, while
"similar" to the programs for my aids, are a little non-intuitive. One
of Jim's suggestions was to go slow. Make a change, and then evaluate
it over several days or a week under various band conditions. I, of
course, expected to sit down and get this done in 10 mins :-) So, if
you are hearing-impaired with a K3, I would urge you to spend some time
with the Rx equalizer. You *can* make a difference with it.

My hearing aids have a teeny little multi-wire connector inside the
battery compartment they use to program them. I've wondered if there
was a way to use that to feed flat audio from the radio into them for
correction, but so far, no progress on that front.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2011 Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2011
- www.cqp.org
Ian White GM3SEK
2011-07-11 20:31:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred Jensen
I appreciate this thread. I too am both nearly deaf, and even with
level and frequency correction, I can't understand someone speaking
behind me. My loss occurred all at once from an RPG explosion one
night, and I've been told "the rocks on your hair cells are gone" so it
affects my sense of balance as well.
The latest hearing aids the VA gave me are Phonak multi-program DSP
gizmos, and are many light years ahead of anything else I've had. They
run at "afterburner roar" and do not work under the Heil Proset I got
from Elecraft. However I do get to walk around with $6K of fairly
effective micro-electronics stuffed into my ears thanks to very
generous American taxpayers. Thank you all, I hope I deserve it.
Chalk up another Phonak user here, again a behind-the-ear design with a
remarkable adaptive DSP and user-selectable programs for special
functions. My natural hearing is almost exactly 'SSB quality', good up
to about 2.5kHz but then rolling off rapidly, so the hearing aids are
programmed to restore the higher frequencies that I haven't been hearing
lately.

Unlike the usual solid ear mold, mine have open earpieces within the ear
canal which allow the lower frequencies to enter and be heard naturally.
The hearing aids are only adding (or emphasizing) what's missing.

The one application where I don't need the hearing aids at present is
when listening to SSB or CW... but that may change as my frequency
rolloff is likely to continue its downward march, so this whole
discussion remains very relevant to me.

The problem with using on-the-ear headphones (such as computer headsets)
is that behind-the-ear hearing aids cannot pick up the full headphone
sound that they need to process. But over-the ear headphones that
completely enclose the hearing aids are not workable either, because the
headphone sound creates a constantly changing feedback environment which
can upset the DSP echo cancellation and sounds terrible.

The only solution then is to operate without the hearing aids, and rely
on either the radio or some external EQ to apply the necessary
corrections.

The K3's receive EQ can do this for us, but some users will find it
essential to have independently adjustable EQ for each ear. A preset L-R
balance would also be useful, so that the concentric AF gain controls
can be reserved for their normal use.

We're all getting older, but most of us are intending to keep our K3s
for a long, long time, so the numbers of people who could benefit seem
likely to increase.
--
73 from Ian GM3SEK
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek
Don Wilhelm
2011-07-11 21:54:56 UTC
Permalink
Ian,

I use the same type hearing aids. Talk with your audiologist.
My audiologist set a "Music" program for me, which does not have the
echo cancellation. I can even listen to an organ with that setting.
I do get feedback with some headphones, but I have success using the
Sony MDR series (consumer grade, not the pro version of similar 'phones.

I just ordered a Yamaha CM500 which has gotten rave reviews on this
reflector, and I am hopeful that they also will allow me to wear my
over-the-ear aids with them.

73,
Don W3FPR
Post by Philip L. Graitcer
because the
headphone sound creates a constantly changing feedback environment which
can upset the DSP echo cancellation and sounds terrible.
The only solution then is to operate without the hearing aids, and rely
on either the radio or some external EQ to apply the necessary
corrections.
Ian White GM3SEK
2011-07-12 09:59:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Wilhelm
I use the same type hearing aids.
Probably not exactly the same, because Phonak is a brand name (Swiss)
offering several different models, each available with a number of
different earpieces, and then of course a vast range of programming
options.
Post by Don Wilhelm
Talk with your audiologist.
My audiologist set a "Music" program for me, which does not have the
echo cancellation. I can even listen to an organ with that setting.
The default music program on mine does have some echo cancellation
(though not as aggressive as the speech program) and I was rather
disappointed with its limited dynamic range before DSP artefacts appear,
and they have to be switched off when *playing* a musical instrument
quite close to the ear.

I'd love to borrow the audiologist's programming interface for a few
weeks!
Post by Don Wilhelm
I do get feedback with some headphones, but I have success using the
Sony MDR series (consumer grade, not the pro version of similar 'phones.
That's interesting; I'd have assumed that all fully-enclosing headphones
would have been very similar in respect of feedback to a hearing aid
inside the earmuffs. Maybe some of them sit more closely over the
microphones... but in that case, you'd also be getting less correction
from the hearing aids.
Post by Don Wilhelm
I just ordered a Yamaha CM500 which has gotten rave reviews on this
reflector, and I am hopeful that they also will allow me to wear my
over-the-ear aids with them.
Good luck with them, Don, and we'll look forward to your report.
--
73 from Ian GM3SEK
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek
Philip L. Graitcer
2011-07-11 16:16:23 UTC
Permalink
My day job is reporting and producing features for public radio. In
the studio, I use a pair of Sony 7506. I also use them for amateur
radio.

The Sonys cost about $100, and they have an extremely comfortable set
of pads that fit over the ears, which are replaceable. Although the
response range is much wider that we need for amateur radio, they are
really a nice set for DX or doing something for broadcast. They are
also foldable so they could be used in portable situations.

In the field, however, I use a pair of in-air Etymotics E-6s - also
about $100. They fit in the ear canal so would not be useful for
someone with hearing aids. I prefer them over the Sonys because I
don't have that geeky reporter look. I am a little lower profile, even
though I am carrying a shortgun mic.

Both the Sony and the Etymotics are very good at isolating external
sound - the Sonys because of their great pads, the Etys because they
fit inside the ear canal. I sometimes wear them in an airplane,
without music attached. They are so good at isolation, that when I am
reporting, I do not walk around with the Etys in, unless I have my
recording mic open.

Phil, W3HZZ
Edward R. Cole
2011-07-11 18:17:47 UTC
Permalink
I have had many inquiries for that hearing aid I wear.

They are the Phonak Savia. Cost me about $5200 for both ears in
2006. I see this model is not longer offered and newer models
available. Hearing aid technology is advancing quickly. I have no
financial connection with Phonak.

73, Ed - KL7UW

------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 16:25:34 +0200
From: "Kjeld Holm" <kh at kh-translation.dk>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Headphones
To: <elecraft at mailman.qth.net>
Message-ID: <009401cc3fd6$65b650a0$3122f1e0$@kh-translation.dk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear All,

For your information

The Danish company Phonak are selling a device under the name of TVLink
which plugs into the line out, Scart, headphone or external speaker
connector and from it's console sends in stereo to your hearing aids. I have
not tried it yet - so I cannot say anything about how it performs. The price
is 3000 DKK around 450 EUR.

Vy de

OZ1CCM, Kjeld



73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
======================================
BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com
EME: 50-1.1kw?, 144-1.4kw, 432-100w, 1296-60w, 3400-?
DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubususa at gmail.com
======================================
Edward R. Cole
2011-07-12 20:18:14 UTC
Permalink
Ian,

My Phonak hearing aids use the molded earpiece so that may make the
difference when wearing headphones. I have a program for listening
to music/TV which is flat-freq response and has no
anti-echo/noise-cancellation routines running. Works quite well with
my Sony stereo headphones. The molded earpiece offer better
isolation from feedback.

Sounds to me that Fred is using the same hearing aid as me. My
hearing loss is not as bad as Fred but worse than Ian, so SSB is a
challenge but not impossible. The programing interface inside the
battery compartment is probably only a serial digital interface and
may not allow audio in/out. Contacting Phonak's service dept. might
tell you more.

I cannot use any device that is in-the-ear since I cannot then wear
the hearing aid. My prior hearing aids were in-ear inserts but did
not have the noise-cancelling features since only one mic can be
used. This argument was what swayed me to over the ear.

I will probably try the CM500 from the positive experience by others
and low price. If they do not work for me there seems to be a market
for them so I would not lose much in trade.

I understand your recommendations, Jim. If my hearing were better
that probably would work for me. So far, I have only shifted the Tx
equalization on my K3, leaving Rx audio shaping to be done by my
hearing aids. But I can certainly try some modifications to see if
it helps. Measuring hearing is difficult for the professionals so
the point of giving some time with settings makes sense. Hearing is
partly acoustical and partly mental; not that different from analog
and digital processing in electronics. Only that programming one's
self is a iterative process and heuristic. Takes an adjustment period.

Hope my comments were not too OT and were helpful for the hearing
impaired as well as the rest of you. Too often hearing impaired
folks are seen as "not paying attention" or "Lazy listeners", when,
in fact, they are concentrating very hard to understand.

Here's an exercise for those with good hearing: Try placing foam
inserts in your ears, add a pair shooters hearing muffs and try
hearing someone whisper while the lawn mower is running. This is how
it is "everyday" for us with hearing problems. Or turn down the K3
volume to one notch above minimum during a contest with PRE off and
ATT on. Put a pillow over your ears and then use headphones...getting it?

73, Ed

------------------------------

Message: 24
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 21:31:06 +0100
From: Ian White GM3SEK <gm3sek at ifwtech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Headphones
To: elecraft at mailman.qth.net
===snipped===
But over-the ear headphones that
completely enclose the hearing aids are not workable either, because the
headphone sound creates a constantly changing feedback environment which
can upset the DSP echo cancellation and sounds terrible.




73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
======================================
BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com
EME: 50-1.1kw?, 144-1.4kw, 432-100w, 1296-60w, 3400-?
DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubususa at gmail.com
======================================
n5ge
2011-07-12 21:37:20 UTC
Permalink
Ed,

I liked my Oticon aids so well that I talked my 87 year old mother into getting
some (she said she could hear quite well, thank you) ;o) Mine are very much
like yours in appearance and features.

The aids she got were the newest since I got mine and they are smaller and
thinner than an almond, going behind the ear, but they have the speaker on a
wire that goes into the inner ear, and they actually have xcvrs in them so they
can communicate with each other saying things like that sound was from my side
so you don't need to increase it as much as I do.

The audiologist says that with these aids she can distinguish the direction of
sounds very well. I hope to get a pair one of these days but as you know, they
are very expensive. More than 2 KPA500s ;o)

73,
Tom
Amateur Radio Operator N5GE
ARRL Lifetime Member
QCWA Lifetime Member

On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 12:18:14 -0800, "Edward R. Cole" <kl7uw at acsalaska.net>
Post by Edward R. Cole
Ian,
My Phonak hearing aids use the molded earpiece so that may make the
difference when wearing headphones. I have a program for listening
to music/TV which is flat-freq response and has no
anti-echo/noise-cancellation routines running. Works quite well with
my Sony stereo headphones. The molded earpiece offer better
isolation from feedback.
Sounds to me that Fred is using the same hearing aid as me. My
hearing loss is not as bad as Fred but worse than Ian, so SSB is a
challenge but not impossible. The programing interface inside the
battery compartment is probably only a serial digital interface and
may not allow audio in/out. Contacting Phonak's service dept. might
tell you more.
I cannot use any device that is in-the-ear since I cannot then wear
the hearing aid. My prior hearing aids were in-ear inserts but did
not have the noise-cancelling features since only one mic can be
used. This argument was what swayed me to over the ear.
I will probably try the CM500 from the positive experience by others
and low price. If they do not work for me there seems to be a market
for them so I would not lose much in trade.
I understand your recommendations, Jim. If my hearing were better
that probably would work for me. So far, I have only shifted the Tx
equalization on my K3, leaving Rx audio shaping to be done by my
hearing aids. But I can certainly try some modifications to see if
it helps. Measuring hearing is difficult for the professionals so
the point of giving some time with settings makes sense. Hearing is
partly acoustical and partly mental; not that different from analog
and digital processing in electronics. Only that programming one's
self is a iterative process and heuristic. Takes an adjustment period.
Hope my comments were not too OT and were helpful for the hearing
impaired as well as the rest of you. Too often hearing impaired
folks are seen as "not paying attention" or "Lazy listeners", when,
in fact, they are concentrating very hard to understand.
Here's an exercise for those with good hearing: Try placing foam
inserts in your ears, add a pair shooters hearing muffs and try
hearing someone whisper while the lawn mower is running. This is how
it is "everyday" for us with hearing problems. Or turn down the K3
volume to one notch above minimum during a contest with PRE off and
ATT on. Put a pillow over your ears and then use headphones...getting it?
73, Ed
------------------------------
Message: 24
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 21:31:06 +0100
From: Ian White GM3SEK <gm3sek at ifwtech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Headphones
To: elecraft at mailman.qth.net
===snipped===
But over-the ear headphones that
completely enclose the hearing aids are not workable either, because the
headphone sound creates a constantly changing feedback environment which
can upset the DSP echo cancellation and sounds terrible.
73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
======================================
BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com
EME: 50-1.1kw?, 144-1.4kw, 432-100w, 1296-60w, 3400-?
DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubususa at gmail.com
======================================
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Fred Jensen
2011-07-12 23:19:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward R. Cole
I understand your recommendations, Jim. If my hearing were better
that probably would work for me. So far, I have only shifted the Tx
equalization on my K3, leaving Rx audio shaping to be done by my
hearing aids. But I can certainly try some modifications to see if
it helps.
Elecraft has given those of us with impaired hearing a whole new thing
to help. I really urge anyone with hearing impairment and a K3 to spend
some time with the RX EQ. Honestly, you probably can't make it perfect,
although I long ago forgot what perfect was, but you *can* make it better!

I know they tell us it's a +/- 16dB range, but that's 32 dB top to
bottom, folks! Just turn the AF Gain up as you figure out your
settings. And, do it slowly, half of hearing is in the brain, not the ears.

Thanks Elecraft, SSB is a doable thing for me with the RX EQ.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2011 Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2011
- www.cqp.org

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