Discussion:
RE: Does anyone miss passband tuning, audio notch on K2?
(too old to reply)
Eddy Avila
2003-01-26 15:33:01 UTC
Permalink
I don't yet own a K2, but I wonder if those that do secretly wish they had
passband tuning or an audio notch filter of their K2? I was just on 40 CW
working a pileup and the first thing I reach for is the passband tuning knob
after going to the tight CW filtering to control of QRM!

Your thoughts about this would be greatly appreciated!

73...ed





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Francis Belliveau
2003-01-26 15:51:09 UTC
Permalink
I don't know what I would do in SSB but for CW there is a "Reverse" mode
that swaps all the signals around (without loosing the one a zerro beat).
This one button answer does well to ward off close by strong CW signals.

Fran
B***@aol.com
2003-01-26 15:52:04 UTC
Permalink
I found that in recent years I have come to depend too much on
the newer filtering technologies to reduce QRM. The K2 reminds
me of my Heath HW-101 days when, if there was too much
QRM, I kicked in the (only) CW filter and cranked back on the
RF gain control. From then on, it was up to the (in my case)
1957 model Eardrum to do the rest. It's up to the individual
after all.

Just my thoughts.

73,

Bob WA4FOM


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George, W5YR
2003-01-26 19:00:01 UTC
Permalink
Bob, the problem is that 1929 model eardrums don't work as well as the
newer models! : }

73/72, George
Amateur Radio W5YR - the Yellow Rose of Texas
In the 57th year and it just keeps getting better!
Fairview, TX 30 mi NE of Dallas in Collin county EM13qe
K2 #489 IC-765 #2349 IC-756 PRO #2121 IC-756 PRO2 #3235


Original Message -----
From: <***@aol.com>
To: <***@hotmail.com>; <***@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RE: Does anyone miss passband tuning, audio
notch on K2?
Post by B***@aol.com
I found that in recent years I have come to depend too much on
the newer filtering technologies to reduce QRM. The K2 reminds
me of my Heath HW-101 days when, if there was too much
QRM, I kicked in the (only) CW filter and cranked back on the
RF gain control. From then on, it was up to the (in my case)
1957 model Eardrum to do the rest. It's up to the individual
after all.
Just my thoughts.
73,
Bob WA4FOM
73/72, George
Amateur Radio W5YR - the Yellow Rose of Texas
In the 57th year and it just keeps getting better!
Fairview, TX 30 mi NE of Dallas in Collin county EM13qe
K2 #489 IC-765 #2349 IC-756 PRO #2121 IC-756 PRO2 #3235
Bob Nielsen
2003-01-27 04:16:09 UTC
Permalink
I dunno, my 1939 model eardrums even have a notch filter (unfortunately
it's not tunable).

73,
Bob, N7XY
Post by George, W5YR
Bob, the problem is that 1929 model eardrums don't work as well as the
newer models! : }
73/72, George
Amateur Radio W5YR - the Yellow Rose of Texas
In the 57th year and it just keeps getting better!
Fairview, TX 30 mi NE of Dallas in Collin county EM13qe
K2 #489 IC-765 #2349 IC-756 PRO #2121 IC-756 PRO2 #3235
Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RE: Does anyone miss passband tuning, audio
notch on K2?
Post by B***@aol.com
I found that in recent years I have come to depend too much on
the newer filtering technologies to reduce QRM. The K2 reminds
me of my Heath HW-101 days when, if there was too much
QRM, I kicked in the (only) CW filter and cranked back on the
RF gain control. From then on, it was up to the (in my case)
1957 model Eardrum to do the rest. It's up to the individual
after all.
Just my thoughts.
73,
Bob WA4FOM
73/72, George
Amateur Radio W5YR - the Yellow Rose of Texas
In the 57th year and it just keeps getting better!
Fairview, TX 30 mi NE of Dallas in Collin county EM13qe
K2 #489 IC-765 #2349 IC-756 PRO #2121 IC-756 PRO2 #3235
George, W5YR
2003-01-27 04:26:01 UTC
Permalink
Bob, I'd settle for one right at 5500 Hz where my tinnitus hits its
peak! <:}

73/72, George
Amateur Radio W5YR - the Yellow Rose of Texas
In the 57th year and it just keeps getting better!
Fairview, TX 30 mi NE of Dallas in Collin county EM13qe
K2 #489 IC-765 #2349 IC-756 PRO #2121 IC-756 PRO2 #3235

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Nielsen" <***@oz.net>
To: <***@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 9:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RE: Does anyone miss passband tuning, audio
notch on K2?
Post by Bob Nielsen
I dunno, my 1939 model eardrums even have a notch filter
(unfortunately
Post by Bob Nielsen
it's not tunable).
73,
Bob, N7XY
Sandy W5TVW
2003-01-27 17:55:06 UTC
Permalink
No I don't have a K2.
Yes! I WOULD miss passband tuning! I do PSK digital at times (VERY rarely SSB!)
The passband tuning does wonders in eliminating some signals above or below
(not both at same time on my radio!) the desired signal. Without it, it would be
rough going on PSK especially when a PACTOR opens up "next door"!
Just a thought.

I am a very satisfied K1 owner, but it will not do PSk of course.
73,
Sandy W5TVW
----- Original Message -----
From: "George, W5YR" <***@att.net>
To: "Bob Nielsen" <***@oz.net>; <***@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RE: Does anyone miss passband tuning, audio notch on K2?


| Bob, I'd settle for one right at 5500 Hz where my tinnitus hits its
| peak! <:}
|
| 73/72, George
| Amateur Radio W5YR - the Yellow Rose of Texas
| In the 57th year and it just keeps getting better!
| Fairview, TX 30 mi NE of Dallas in Collin county EM13qe
| K2 #489 IC-765 #2349 IC-756 PRO #2121 IC-756 PRO2 #3235
|
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: "Bob Nielsen" <***@oz.net>
| To: <***@mailman.qth.net>
| Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 9:12 PM
| Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RE: Does anyone miss passband tuning, audio
| notch on K2?
|
|
| > I dunno, my 1939 model eardrums even have a notch filter
| (unfortunately
| > it's not tunable).
| >
| > 73,
| > Bob, N7XY
|
|
| _______________________________________________
| Elecraft mailing list: ***@mailman.qth.net
| You must be a list member to post to the list.
| Postings must be plain text (no HTML or attachments).
| See: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
| Elecraft Web Page: http://www.elecraft.com
|
|
N***@aol.com
2003-01-26 17:23:00 UTC
Permalink
In a message dated 1/26/03 9:33:42 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Post by Eddy Avila
I don't yet own a K2, but I wonder if those that do secretly wish they had
passband tuning or an audio notch filter of their K2?
Nope. Not me
Post by Eddy Avila
I was just on 40 CW
working a pileup and the first thing I reach for is the passband tuning
knob
Post by Eddy Avila
after going to the tight CW filtering to control of QRM!
I have found that once the K2's filters are set up, there isn't much need for
anything else on CW except RIT or SPLIT modes. I have my filters set for
1000, 500, 330 and 250 Hz, (acdording to the readout) and also have KAF2.
Normally run with AGC OFF, AF gain way up and RF Gain cranked back.
Post by Eddy Avila
Your thoughts about this would be greatly appreciated!
Passband tuning may be of use on SSB, and on CW/data when narrow filters
aren't available, but with the K2's wide range of user-defined narrow xtal
filtering, it's another story.

Of course it would be nice to have such features in an Elecraft set - but not
at the expense of basic radio performance factors, such as close-in dynamic
range.

73 de Jim, N2EY
Herb
2003-01-26 18:09:00 UTC
Permalink
What bandwidth do you find works best for setup of the filters for CW? In
my K2 the 1500 hz seems too wide and with the 100 hz I get a lot of
attenuation of the signal. How does yours work Jim?

73 Herb K5AIC
ex NF5Y
Post by N***@aol.com
I have found that once the K2's filters are set up, there isn't much need for
anything else on CW except RIT or SPLIT modes. I have my filters set for
1000, 500, 330 and 250 Hz, (acdording to the readout) and also have KAF2.
Normally run with AGC OFF, AF gain way up and RF Gain cranked back.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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garigue
2003-01-26 21:39:00 UTC
Permalink
Hello Herb ... I guess it all depends what you are used to over the years.
I ran wide no filter receivers for years as that was all I could afford in
my younger days. I am not totally happy with ANY filtering scheme although
some do the job better than others. The unhappiness is not really from the
filtering point but from the audio-tonal qualities. I find that I use the
1.5 kc setting about 95 percent of the time ...but that again is from
someone who really doesn't mind hearing 3 stations at one time on the SMK.
God Bless 73 Tom KI3R Port Vue Pa nr Pittsburgh
----- Original Message -----
From: "Herb" <***@netdoor.com>
To: <***@aol.com>
Cc: <***@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 12:07 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] CW Filters - was Does anyone miss passband tuning, audio
notch on K2?
Post by Herb
What bandwidth do you find works best for setup of the filters for CW? In
my K2 the 1500 hz seems too wide and with the 100 hz I get a lot of
attenuation of the signal. How does yours work Jim?
73 Herb K5AIC
ex NF5Y
Post by N***@aol.com
I have found that once the K2's filters are set up, there isn't much need for
anything else on CW except RIT or SPLIT modes. I have my filters set for
1000, 500, 330 and 250 Hz, (acdording to the readout) and also have KAF2.
Normally run with AGC OFF, AF gain way up and RF Gain cranked back.
73 de Jim, N2EY
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You must be a list member to post to the list.
Postings must be plain text (no HTML or attachments).
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Elecraft Web Page: http://www.elecraft.com
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Postings must be plain text (no HTML or attachments).
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Martin AC6RM
2003-01-27 08:28:04 UTC
Permalink
When I was invited to the shack of the great Bob Goldman, K6BD (SK,
callsign reassigned) I had to tear him away from writing javascript. He
was in his eighties and his wife had passed a year before. But he was
full of life. When I finally got him in front of the rig so I could get
some mentoring, he said "make sure you get a rig you can turn the AGC OFF.
If you can't turn the ACG off, it probably means the audio circuit isn't
worth a damn. You'll miss sh*t in the passband if you have to mess with
an ACG; stuff you'd wished you'd gotten" (or something to that effect,
anyway). He had a Kwd TS940S. He had DXCC six ways from Sunday and a
list of other awards that filled the wall.

Not withstanding, IF shift in the K2 would seem to be a firmware issue,
since CAL FIL takes you there in a manual sort of way. If you gotta have
IF shift, then scope what's happening on the comm bus during CAL FIL, then
program up a 16F84 with a couple of buttons or something.

Maybe I'm out to lunch ...

73, Martin
(k2#3021 "It's Shake'n'Bake an' Ah Healped!")
Post by garigue
Hello Herb ... I guess it all depends what you are used to over the
years. I ran wide no filter receivers for years as that was all I could
afford in my younger days. I am not totally happy with ANY filtering
scheme although some do the job better than others. The unhappiness is
not really from the filtering point but from the audio-tonal qualities.
I find that I use the 1.5 kc setting about 95 percent of the time ...but
that again is from someone who really doesn't mind hearing 3 stations at
one time on the SMK. God Bless 73 Tom KI3R Port Vue Pa nr Pittsburgh
<...snip...>
George, W5YR
2003-01-26 18:54:05 UTC
Permalink
Absolutely, Eddy! Either or preferably both would enhance the K2 an
order of magnitude in operational capability in my experience. But
don't let this deter you from the K2 experience. It remains one of the
most remarkable amateur radio designs to come along in a very long
time - I can almost guarantee that you will love it, although like
most things in life, it is not "perfect."

Realistically, the K2 architecture would be hard put to support IF
Shift or some form of Passband Tuning. In fact, at first glance I
doubt that it would be feasible at all in view of the complexity
involved - but I won't try to outguess Wayne and Eric. These features
may have been omitted for other than technical reasons, but as I
understand the basic operation of the K2, shifting the filter passband
and altering its width with the twist of a knob, etc. would not be
feasible, if possible at all.

What *would* help considerably would be the inclusion of a tunable
audio notch filter in the KAF2. Again, this is probably absent for
good and sufficient reasons, but this speaks to the most common
situation that I find the K2 cannot handle: a heterodyne very near the
frequency of the desired signal. It just fills in the spaces in the
code characters and makes the signal virtually unreadable even though
the signal may be fairly strong. I tune in the same signal on my
IC-756PRO2 and observe the same effect. Usually any signal that the
PRO2 can copy can be heard on the K2 - maybe not as well or as "clean"
but it can be heard!

Then I flip on the PRO2 Manual Notch Filter and just nudge the carrier
down and/or out and the signal is completely readable. Of course this
is a DSP IF notch and not a fair comparison, but my point is that a
notch would surely be a major operational advantage for the K2, if
only in audio. I suspect that the K2 design would ill support a true
IF notch filter.

What experience have others had using outboard DSP or analog filters,
including notch filters? I intend to try this with my JPS NIR-12
Dual-DSP unit - trouble it that is almost as large as the K2 and
weighs about as much and uses more power than the K2 does on receive!
Not very feasible to take to the field! <:}

Maybe Wayne and Eric are reading this and laughing, and even now
laying out the next mod kit(s) for the K2! Let's hope so! <:}

73/72, George
Amateur Radio W5YR - the Yellow Rose of Texas
In the 57th year and it just keeps getting better!
Fairview, TX 30 mi NE of Dallas in Collin county EM13qe
K2 #489 IC-765 #2349 IC-756 PRO #2121 IC-756 PRO2 #3235

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eddy Avila" <***@hotmail.com>
To: <***@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 8:30 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] RE: Does anyone miss passband tuning, audio notch
on K2?
Post by Eddy Avila
I don't yet own a K2, but I wonder if those that do secretly wish they had
passband tuning or an audio notch filter of their K2? I was just on 40 CW
working a pileup and the first thing I reach for is the passband tuning knob
after going to the tight CW filtering to control of QRM!
Your thoughts about this would be greatly appreciated!
73...ed
Vic Rosenthal
2003-01-26 20:05:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by George, W5YR
Absolutely, Eddy! Either or preferably both would enhance the K2 an
order of magnitude in operational capability in my experience.
As you well know, an 'order of magnitude' means 10 times better! I wouldn't go
that far.

I did try a version of PBT by setting all of my CW filters to the same passband
width, but with different BFO settings. So instead of switching filters, I had
4-step discrete passband tuning. I eventually decided to go back to the stock
setup, but I might try it again, this time with FL1 as a 1.5 KHz 'tuning' mode
and FL2-FL4 as 350 Hz 'working' modes.
Post by George, W5YR
as I
understand the basic operation of the K2, shifting the filter passband
and altering its width with the twist of a knob, etc. would not be
feasible, if possible at all.
When you do CAL FIL, the firmware adjusts the PLL frequency to keep the pitch
the same as you move the BFO with respect to the filter passband. So 'all' that
would have to happen to implement PBT would be to make this process occur in
real time as the (currently nonexistent) PBT knob was turned.

Vic K2VCO
George, W5YR
2003-01-26 21:44:00 UTC
Permalink
Thanks, Vic, for filling in some of my blanks.

I am probably just spoiled from too many years of operating the "big
iron" and have not yet learned how to make the most of the
capabilities of the K2.

Having to "work" at running a radio like the K2 can be a change of
pace from something like the Icom PRO2! <:}

But I greatly enjoy operating both radios!

73/72, George
Amateur Radio W5YR - the Yellow Rose of Texas
In the 57th year and it just keeps getting better!
Fairview, TX 30 mi NE of Dallas in Collin county EM13qe
K2 #489 IC-765 #2349 IC-756 PRO #2121 IC-756 PRO2 #3235

----- Original Message -----
From: "Vic Rosenthal" <***@rakefet.com>
To: "George, W5YR" <***@att.net>
Cc: "Eddy Avila" <***@hotmail.com>; <***@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RE: Does anyone miss passband tuning, audio
notch on K2?
Post by Vic Rosenthal
Post by George, W5YR
Absolutely, Eddy! Either or preferably both would enhance the K2 an
order of magnitude in operational capability in my experience.
As you well know, an 'order of magnitude' means 10 times better! I wouldn't go
that far.
I did try a version of PBT by setting all of my CW filters to the same passband
width, but with different BFO settings. So instead of switching filters, I had
4-step discrete passband tuning. I eventually decided to go back to the stock
setup, but I might try it again, this time with FL1 as a 1.5 KHz 'tuning' mode
and FL2-FL4 as 350 Hz 'working' modes.
Post by George, W5YR
as I
understand the basic operation of the K2, shifting the filter passband
and altering its width with the twist of a knob, etc. would not be
feasible, if possible at all.
When you do CAL FIL, the firmware adjusts the PLL frequency to keep the pitch
the same as you move the BFO with respect to the filter passband.
So 'all' that
Post by Vic Rosenthal
would have to happen to implement PBT would be to make this process occur in
real time as the (currently nonexistent) PBT knob was turned.
Vic K2VCO
Ron D'Eau Claire
2003-01-26 19:24:01 UTC
Permalink
You DO have that capability with the K2, Eddy! "Passband Tuning" is just
shifting the receive passband around without changing the transmit
frequency.

On the K2, you just put it in SPLIT and crank the Tuning knob to center
your passband where you want it.

A lot of the "gadgets" in modern transceivers were conceived because
they ARE "transceivers" with only one tuning knob. An awful lot of the
"features" are simply a re-naming or slightly different implementations
of the things we had on our separate transmitters and receivers 40 years
ago.

For SSB, you can emulate "passband tuning" by setting up the for
available filters for each sideband with different BFO frequencies,
thereby moving the passband around. You then have four selectable
"passband" settings at the push of a button. Of course, SPLIT (or RIT)
works FB on SSB too.

Sometimes I would LIKE a notch filter, but it's strictly a "nicety".

The right place for a "notch" filter is at the input of the i-f strip,
where the existing i-f filters are located. But it gets very complicated
to add such a filter at that point. I think that's why i-f "notch"
filters all but disappeared in the 1960s with the advent of monolithic
"passband" filters for the i-f. The newer filters won't provide a
"notch" but they do provide superior stop-band and skirt performance.

Audio notch filters work well, but they require turning off the AGC to
operate properly. Otherwise, the strong signal you notch out will still
drive down the AGC, making the signal you want to hear even weaker. So
you can turn the AGC off, but I suspect that a lot of ops would sorely
miss it. AGC and S-meters are gadgets that most ops have gotten used to
over the years.

I haven't been highly motivated to mess with a notch filter because it
isn't often that I really need it. The K2 filters are VERY good!


Ron AC7AC
K2 # 1289

I don't yet own a K2, but I wonder if those that do secretly wish they
had
passband tuning or an audio notch filter of their K2? I was just on 40
CW
working a pileup and the first thing I reach for is the passband tuning
knob
after going to the tight CW filtering to control of QRM!

Your thoughts about this would be greatly appreciated!

73...ed
Rod N0RC
2003-01-26 20:00:02 UTC
Permalink
Ron, et.al.,

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <***@easystreet.com>
To: "'Eddy Avila'" <***@hotmail.com>; <***@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 11:22 AM
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] RE: Does anyone miss passband tuning, audio
notch on K2?
Post by Ron D'Eau Claire
You DO have that capability with the K2, Eddy! "Passband Tuning" is just
shifting the receive passband around without changing the transmit
frequency.
On the K2, you just put it in SPLIT and crank the Tuning knob to center
your passband where you want it.
Doing this will alter the tone of the received signal. Passband tuning
as implemented in the Icom 746pro, moves the leading and/or trailing
edge of the passband without changing the pitch of the audio. That said
I use it infrequently. It is handy when one working on station for a
long time. But when frequency hoping during a sprint or contest it is
distracting.


73, Rod N0RC
Elecraft CC: 1.5 of 100, started 05-Jan-2003
Hank Kohl K8DD
2003-01-26 19:28:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eddy Avila
I don't yet own a K2, but I wonder if those that do secretly wish they had
passband tuning or an audio notch filter of their K2? I was just on 40 CW
working a pileup and the first thing I reach for is the passband tuning
knob after going to the tight CW filtering to control of QRM!
Your thoughts about this would be greatly appreciated!
73...ed
Not really .... I've got passband tuning and/or IF shift on the IC-746
(pair of 400Hz filters) and had it on the IC-765 (pair of 500Hz and pair of
250Hz filters). Rarely ever used on either.
My K2/100 is set up for 1800, 700, 400, 100 ..... 1800 for traffic
nets. 700 for CQing, 400 when the nastier QRM moves in. Don't often use
the 100, even though has minimal attenuation.

Although it doesn't work for everyone, but one of the best CW filters is
between your ears (IMHO)

73 Hank K8DD
Bob Tellefsen
2003-01-26 22:18:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi George

If I remember correctly, my old Kenwood TS-180 used a single conversion
receiver section
like the K2, and it had a very nice passband tuning arrangement. I even
loaned
the manual to Eric to look at. By then, the K2 was already out, so nothing
came of it that affected the K2. Who knows about the future?

My take on PBT is that is most useful if you have filters with pretty steep
skirts so you can push QRM "off the cliff". The K2 filter shape is less
square than the fixed width filters that get switched in in other rigs, so
probably it isn't worth while to implement PBT here. If W and E ever come
out with a radio with fixed bandwith filters with good shape factors, PBT
might be a valid option.

And yes, at times I do miss it.
73, Bob N6WG

-----Original Message-----
From: elecraft-***@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-***@mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of George, W5YR
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 9:51 AM
To: Eddy Avila; ***@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RE: Does anyone miss passband tuning, audio
notch on K2?


Absolutely, Eddy! Either or preferably both would enhance the K2 an
order of magnitude in operational capability in my experience. But
don't let this deter you from the K2 experience. It remains one of the
most remarkable amateur radio designs to come along in a very long
time - I can almost guarantee that you will love it, although like
most things in life, it is not "perfect."

Realistically, the K2 architecture would be hard put to support IF
Shift or some form of Passband Tuning. In fact, at first glance I
doubt that it would be feasible at all in view of the complexity
involved - but I won't try to outguess Wayne and Eric. These features
may have been omitted for other than technical reasons, but as I
understand the basic operation of the K2, shifting the filter passband
and altering its width with the twist of a knob, etc. would not be
feasible, if possible at all.

What *would* help considerably would be the inclusion of a tunable
audio notch filter in the KAF2. Again, this is probably absent for
good and sufficient reasons, but this speaks to the most common
situation that I find the K2 cannot handle: a heterodyne very near the
frequency of the desired signal. It just fills in the spaces in the
code characters and makes the signal virtually unreadable even though
the signal may be fairly strong. I tune in the same signal on my
IC-756PRO2 and observe the same effect. Usually any signal that the
PRO2 can copy can be heard on the K2 - maybe not as well or as "clean"
but it can be heard!

Then I flip on the PRO2 Manual Notch Filter and just nudge the carrier
down and/or out and the signal is completely readable. Of course this
is a DSP IF notch and not a fair comparison, but my point is that a
notch would surely be a major operational advantage for the K2, if
only in audio. I suspect that the K2 design would ill support a true
IF notch filter.

What experience have others had using outboard DSP or analog filters,
including notch filters? I intend to try this with my JPS NIR-12
Dual-DSP unit - trouble it that is almost as large as the K2 and
weighs about as much and uses more power than the K2 does on receive!
Not very feasible to take to the field! <:}

Maybe Wayne and Eric are reading this and laughing, and even now
laying out the next mod kit(s) for the K2! Let's hope so! <:}

73/72, George
Amateur Radio W5YR - the Yellow Rose of Texas
In the 57th year and it just keeps getting better!
Fairview, TX 30 mi NE of Dallas in Collin county EM13qe
K2 #489 IC-765 #2349 IC-756 PRO #2121 IC-756 PRO2 #3235

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eddy Avila" <***@hotmail.com>
To: <***@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 8:30 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] RE: Does anyone miss passband tuning, audio notch
on K2?
Post by Eddy Avila
I don't yet own a K2, but I wonder if those that do secretly wish
they had
Post by Eddy Avila
passband tuning or an audio notch filter of their K2? I was just on
40 CW
Post by Eddy Avila
working a pileup and the first thing I reach for is the passband
tuning knob
Post by Eddy Avila
after going to the tight CW filtering to control of QRM!
Your thoughts about this would be greatly appreciated!
73...ed
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Ron D'Eau Claire
2003-01-26 23:33:03 UTC
Permalink
Rod is ABSOLUTELY right.... Adjusting the passband with the "main
tuning" will change the beat note.

I forgot that other "handy" control that is NO longer available on our
"modern" rigs... That is a BFO frequency control!

We used to be able to set the passband wherever we wanted, THEN
independenty adjust the BFO for the desired pitch to suit our
preferences...

How "limited" our rigs have become as they have gotten "better" over the
years <G>.

Don't get me wrong! There was nothing to match the steep slopes,
ultimate stop-band attenuation or dynamic range available even in
run-of-the-mill factory-built rigs today, much less the K2! A LOT has
improved, and it's improved immensly.

My comments are strictly in regards the the flexibility that existed in
tuning in a signal, setting notches and adjusting the passband to kill
QRM, etc. Over the past 25+ years modern designs are slowly drifting
back to the functionality that was "standard" 40 years ago!

Ron AC7AC
K2 # 1289
Post by Ron D'Eau Claire
On the K2, you just put it in SPLIT and crank the Tuning knob to
center
Post by Ron D'Eau Claire
your passband where you want it.
Doing this will alter the tone of the received signal....

73, Rod N0RC
Elecraft CC: 1.5 of 100, started 05-Jan-2003
Rod N0RC
2003-01-27 00:15:01 UTC
Permalink
Ron, et.al.,

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <***@easystreet.com>
To: <***@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 3:31 PM
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] RE: Does anyone miss passband tuning, audio
notch on K2?


..
Post by Ron D'Eau Claire
I forgot that other "handy" control that is NO longer available on our
"modern" rigs... That is a BFO frequency control!
We used to be able to set the passband wherever we wanted, THEN
independenty adjust the BFO for the desired pitch to suit our
preferences...
Your age is showing, so is mine...:-) read on.

I believe the "tunable VFO" was an accomodation to the wider passbands
in the rigs of yester-year. If I recall 1, 1.5 or even 2kHz BW were
typical in the "old days". So, BFO tuning helped to mitigate things as
you describe. All things being equal, I'll take the tight precision of
today's modern radio-electronics technology. TUVM :-) It won't be long
before IF-DSP and SDR will be par for the course in most every rig.

73, Rod N0RC
Ron D'Eau Claire
2003-01-27 00:50:12 UTC
Permalink
Not at all Rod.

A tunable BFO allowed one to put a signal in the center of a tight
filter, and then change the audio frequency of the note without changing
the "tuning" of the signal in the i-f bandpass at all!

It's the same thing the K2 does for us when go into St P and change the
"sidetone" frequency.

My 1940's vintage HRO-5 had an i-f filter that could be cranked down to
a couple of hundred Hz (well, back then it was cp/s) AND it provided a
tunable notch.

What it did NOT offer were the wide bandwidths with steep skirts as we
expect today for SSB. But, back then "phone" was AM with each signal
occupying 6 kHz of the band!

I could go on with a list of other things the old receiver did not
offer, from stability, dynamic range, image rejection etc. etc., etc.,
but true narrow bandwidth for CW is nothing new, A lot of us did with
less, using our first regenerative receiver or a simple, cheap superhet,
but the good Ham stations from the 1930's onward offered the tightest CW
selectivity one could use.

I do miss the ability to grab a front panel knob and change the tone of
the CW I'm copying (without changing it's position in the passband) at
will. Indeed, my "second" rx has a BFO knob on the front panel. But
that's a superhet that I designed myself, and adding a tunable BFO made
as much sense as adding a tuning dial. But it's a receiver, not a
transceiver, so it doesn't have all the functional issues of
automatically putting a transmit signal zero beat on the received signal
that are handled by the K2.

My age shows every time I look in the mirror!, Hi!

Ron AC7AC
K2 # 1289



I believe the "tunable VFO" was an accomodation to the wider passbands
in the rigs of yester-year. If I recall 1, 1.5 or even 2kHz BW were
typical in the "old days". So, BFO tuning helped to mitigate things as
you describe. All things being equal, I'll take the tight precision of
today's modern radio-electronics technology. TUVM :-) It won't be long
before IF-DSP and SDR will be par for the course in most every rig.

73, Rod N0RC
Thom LaCosta
2003-01-27 01:04:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eddy Avila
I don't yet own a K2, but I wonder if those that do secretly wish they had
passband tuning or an audio notch filter of their K2? I was just on 40 CW
working a pileup and the first thing I reach for is the passband tuning knob
after going to the tight CW filtering to control of QRM!
Drake owners would tell you that both passband AND notch are very nice,
and I do miss them.

Thom

***@baltimoremd.com Thom LaCosta K3HRN Webmaster
http://www.baltimoremd.com/ Baltimore's Home Page
http://www.baltimorehon.com/ Home of the Baltimore Lexicon
http://www.zerobeat.net Home of The QRP Web Ring and DrakeList
http://www.tlchost.net Web Hosting as low as $3.49/month
Trevor Day
2003-01-27 10:16:00 UTC
Permalink
Drake owners probably need them :-))

Trev G3ZYY
Post by Thom LaCosta
Drake owners would tell you that both passband AND notch are very nice,
and I do miss them.
Thom
--
Trevor Day
t***@blueyonder.co.uk
2003-01-27 11:45:01 UTC
Permalink
Over xmas, or early in the new year, a nice G station on this list sent me a
note about a regular sked he has with a NI or Eire station and invited me
in. Unfortunately I can't find the details.

Whoever it was, I'd be really pleased if he could email me again with the
details!

Thanks

Tony
M3CJF
G7IGG
Kurt Cramer
2003-01-27 01:26:01 UTC
Permalink
Yes Eddy I miss both the the passband tuning and audio notch on the K2.
However I work mostly 20 and 75 meter SSB. Some times I just use the
Drake R-4C T-4XC instead of the K2. An automatic audio notch does help
the K2 a lot in my kind of operation.

73, Kurt
W7QHD (since 1951)
web page: http://W7QHD.tripod.com



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Dan Barker
2003-01-27 12:49:05 UTC
Permalink
In the situation you describe, I certainly hope you're just reading the
mail. To QSO under these conditions is most definately causing Intentional
QRM to the other station.

Just because the nearby signal is not a problem on the other end of the Q
doesn't give you the right to QRM the other guy. (Use the big black knob on
the front!).

Dan / WG4S / K2 #2456.

-----Original Message-----
From: elecraft-***@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-***@mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of George, W5YR
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 12:51 PM
To: Eddy Avila; ***@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RE: Does anyone miss passband tuning, audio
notch on K2?
<snip>
the most common situation that I find the K2 cannot handle: a heterodyne
very near the frequency of the desired signal. It just fills in the spaces
in the
code characters and makes the signal virtually unreadable even though the
signal may be fairly strong.

<snip>
George, W5YR
2003-01-27 19:43:00 UTC
Permalink
Dan, I have no idea what you are talking about.

I am *not* doing any transmitting in the scenario I described - rather
I am trying to read a weak CW signal that has a comparably weak
carrier essentially right on top of it.

Even if I were working the weak station, how would my use of a notch
filter or any other *receiving* means possibly cause QRM to "the other
guy"? And who do you mean by "the other guy?" : my weak CW contact or
the carrier generator?

If "the big black knob on the front" is the tuning control for the K2,
that is the problem: no amount of tuning will move the interfering
carrier off my desired signal so that I can copy him since they would
move together.

Just so we are on the same page:

Say I am listening to a weak CW signal that I am copying ok. Then an
equally weak carrier comes on close enough in frequency that it tends
to "fill in the blanks" and obscure the spaces in my desired signal's
code characters so that I can no longer read it. I find nothing on the
K2 that will deal with this problem since it has neither a notch
capability (IF or audio) or some sort of passband tuning that would
remove or attenuate the interfering signal. I then remarked that in
comparison, my other radio - an Icom PRO2 - does have a good notch
filter and with it I can attenuate the interfering carrier and copy
the weak CW signal. That is all I would do - activate a notch filter.
On that basis, I posted that I supported the use of a notch filter for
the K2.

I'm sorry, Dan, but if you are trying to criticize me for something, I
am afraid that you are just going to have to respect old age and speak
a little louder and clearer! <:}

Please try again . . .

73/72, George
Amateur Radio W5YR - the Yellow Rose of Texas
In the 57th year and it just keeps getting better!
Fairview, TX 30 mi NE of Dallas in Collin county EM13qe
K2 #489 IC-765 #2349 IC-756 PRO #2121 IC-756 PRO2 #3235

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Barker" <***@visioncomm.net>
To: "Elecraft" <***@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 5:46 AM
Subject: FW: [Elecraft] RE: Does anyone miss passband tuning, audio
notch on K2?
Post by Dan Barker
In the situation you describe, I certainly hope you're just reading the
mail. To QSO under these conditions is most definately causing
Intentional
Post by Dan Barker
QRM to the other station.
Just because the nearby signal is not a problem on the other end of the Q
doesn't give you the right to QRM the other guy. (Use the big black knob on
the front!).
Dan / WG4S / K2 #2456.
Thom LaCosta
2003-01-28 00:01:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Trevor Day
Drake owners probably need them :-))
Don't know...the ones on the Drakelist are far too polite to say something
like that (g).

Thom

Thom

***@baltimoremd.com Thom LaCosta K3HRN Webmaster
http://www.baltimoremd.com/ Baltimore's Home Page
http://www.baltimorehon.com/ Home of the Baltimore Lexicon
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