Discussion:
KPA500
(too old to reply)
Fred Jensen
2010-09-09 00:32:27 UTC
Permalink
I'm revamping my wooden rack that used to hold a bunch of things, most
of which are gone now. I need some design info.

Is the form factor for the yet to be available KPA500 the same as my K3?

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2010 Cal QSO Party 2-3 Oct 2010
- www.cqp.org
Lyle Johnson
2010-09-09 00:58:25 UTC
Permalink
Yes, except the fan on the rear is a bit deeper than the twin fans on
the K3/100.

73,

Lyle KK7P

Is the form factor for the yet to be available KPA500 the same as my K3?
Phil Townsend
2010-09-09 03:15:44 UTC
Permalink
The KPA 500?
Will I need to upgrade to the 100 watt machine or will the ten watt k3 do the job.

Phil
Santa Fe, NM

Sent from my iPad
Post by Lyle Johnson
Yes, except the fan on the rear is a bit deeper than the twin fans on
the K3/100.
73,
Lyle KK7P
Is the form factor for the yet to be available KPA500 the same as my K3?
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Robert Friess
2010-09-09 03:27:31 UTC
Permalink
The KPA500 requires 30 to 40 watts for full output. With 10 watts of drive
the output will be around 200 watts or a little less.

Bob, N6CM
Post by Phil Townsend
The KPA 500?
Will I need to upgrade to the 100 watt machine or will the ten watt k3 do the job.
Phil
Santa Fe, NM
Sent from my iPad
Post by Lyle Johnson
Yes, except the fan on the rear is a bit deeper than the twin fans on
the K3/100.
73,
Lyle KK7P
Is the form factor for the yet to be available KPA500 the same as my K3?
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Jay
2010-09-10 02:33:53 UTC
Permalink
Marketting 101
Never ever announce a product before your ready to sell and ship it.

Look at these horrible ham company examples.

Alpha on the 9500, years late to market and many angry hams who put down
lots of money for a downpayment. They will never live that down.

Hilberling radio, God, I am glad we never took a penny of deposite on one
of those.

There are many more examples too, even with Elecraft.

Elecraft with the 1kW and 1.5kW amps they announced and showed at trade
shows.....I am sure you remember.

I don't konw who does the marketting there, but in my opinion keep it in
the lab until your really ready to take orders boyz.

Nuff said.
Jay, WX0B Array Solutions owner and a K3 owner.
Doug Person
2010-09-10 02:58:25 UTC
Permalink
It's never as simple as that. I think announcing a product when its
on its final approach is fine. I think getting tons of feedback on what
you're about to invest heavily in is good business. Maybe the truth of
the earlier amps was that there just wasn't enough positive response to
them. Maybe this time they used all the input from the previous attempt
to refine the price point and feature set. Maybe everytime someone here
says the price is too high Eric makes another note. Or someone else says
I'll order on the first day - is another note. This is free market
research. Easy access to the most likely buyers. A big product mistake
by a small company like Elecraft could sink them. I think they took a
LOT of notes on the road to completing the K3. Nobody can argue with the
results. And when the KPA-500 is released, it will be based on tons of
feedback.

Doug -- K0DXV
Post by Jay
Marketting 101
Never ever announce a product before your ready to sell and ship it.
Look at these horrible ham company examples.
Alpha on the 9500, years late to market and many angry hams who put down
lots of money for a downpayment. They will never live that down.
Hilberling radio, God, I am glad we never took a penny of deposite on one
of those.
There are many more examples too, even with Elecraft.
Elecraft with the 1kW and 1.5kW amps they announced and showed at trade
shows.....I am sure you remember.
I don't konw who does the marketting there, but in my opinion keep it in
the lab until your really ready to take orders boyz.
Nuff said.
Jay, WX0B Array Solutions owner and a K3 owner.
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Wayne Burdick
2010-09-10 03:20:27 UTC
Permalink
Maybe this time they used all the input from the previous [amp]
attempt
to refine the price point and feature set....
And when the KPA-500 is released, it will be based on tons of
feedback.
Couldn't have said it better myself :)

73,
Wayne
N6KR
Bill K9YEQ
2010-09-10 15:21:20 UTC
Permalink
My 3 cents: I like the idea of the 500w with 6 meters. I am using a
THP2.5kfx on low bands now to get the extra s unit. I would gladly have use
for it and the KPA500. As already mentioned: Foolish to battle in the
market place where it is already full. But 6m and the low bands in the 500
watt range, very enticing. Just be sure to design a remote tuner powered
over coax with auto band switching, etc., that works with this setup and
will tune-up a wet noodle. ;-). Then who could resist?

Bill
K9YEQ

-----Original Message-----
From: elecraft-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Wayne Burdick
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 10:20 PM
To: Doug Person
Cc: elecraft at mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA500
Maybe this time they used all the input from the previous [amp]
attempt to refine the price point and feature set....
And when the KPA-500 is released, it will be based on tons of
feedback.
Couldn't have said it better myself :)

73,
Wayne
N6KR


______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Radio Amateur N5GE
2010-09-10 20:35:49 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 9 Sep 2010 20:20:27 -0700, Wayne Burdick <n6kr at elecraft.com>
wrote:

Below...
Post by Wayne Burdick
Maybe this time they used all the input from the previous [amp]
attempt
to refine the price point and feature set....
And when the KPA-500 is released, it will be based on tons of
feedback.
Couldn't have said it better myself :)
73,
Wayne
N6KR
I wonder how many of you guys have thought about this?

Let's say that Elecraft prices the KPA500 160m to 6m 500 watt solid
state amp with built in power supply at $2,000:

Remember the amp has 6m capability...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now let's look at the price of a popular 6m solid state amp:

TE Systems 05612G: $1,388
10-15 W Drive
600 W Output
30 Amps Current Draw (@ 28v)

Astron LS 35A 28v 22A cont, 35A int $345

Investment for 6m 600w amp = $1,733.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Let's add a 500w solid state HF amp:

SG-500 $1299

Lambda EWS-1500 15V 100A Power supply $399

Investment for 500W 160 - 10m amp = $1,698

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Elecraft KPA500 500w output from 160m through 6m (into one coax?) =
$2000.00.

Desk top space requirement: K3 + KPA500 Amp. Two boxes the same size.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Comparable 500w HF and 600w 6m output into two coaxes = $1,733 +
$1,698 = $3,431.

Desk top requirement: K3 + TE Systems Amp + Astron Power supply + SG -
500 + Lambda. Four boxes of various sizes.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Personally, I would rather have one additional box on the desktop at
around $2,000 rather than four extra boxes for $3,431. But then, I'm
just another one of those South Central boys from Texas who may have
missed something ;0)

Tom, N5GE

K3 #806 with SUB RX, PR6,
KRC2 and K144XV
K3 #1055 with PR6 and XV432
W1, 2 W2's and other small kits

QCWA Life Member 35102

n5ge at n5ge.com
http://www.n5ge.com
http://www.swotrc.net
Greg
2010-09-10 03:30:53 UTC
Permalink
Free market feedback...bring back the 1500 watt amp! 73 de Greg-N4CC

-----Original Message-----
From: elecraft-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Doug Person
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 8:58 PM
To: elecraft at mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA500

It's never as simple as that. I think announcing a product when its on
its final approach is fine. I think getting tons of feedback on what you're
about to invest heavily in is good business. Maybe the truth of the earlier
amps was that there just wasn't enough positive response to them. Maybe
this time they used all the input from the previous attempt to refine the
price point and feature set. Maybe everytime someone here says the price is
too high Eric makes another note. Or someone else says I'll order on the
first day - is another note. This is free market research. Easy access to
the most likely buyers. A big product mistake by a small company like
Elecraft could sink them. I think they took a LOT of notes on the road to
completing the K3. Nobody can argue with the results. And when the KPA-500
is released, it will be based on tons of feedback.

Doug -- K0DXV
Phil Townsend
2010-09-10 04:10:48 UTC
Permalink
So I got me a ten watt k3... I like it... It is very good. It works. And I'm thinking of a KPA500.
But to run the KPA500 I gotta get the 100 watt add-on first. Hummmm.... Is that a deal breaker? Might be. If I don't get the hundred water then I can't get fully output.!.?&-?xxx
So the true cost of the kPA500 is way more... For me with just ten watts. I really only want ten watts. But when I feel the need, the need for speed (yeah I had to say it) I would like to hit the big lever marked kill and blast them out of their socks.

"Can't hear me OM??
He switches the amp to kill....
How's ur copy now om?

The screenplay is in my head...
Among other things.

I would like to be able to upgrade with out the interim 100 watter.
Yeah, I know, i won't work but I can ask those guys who sweat solder and cash flow and you never know they just might be able to do it.
To me the K2 was a total mind melt...and the K3 is beyond my wildest dreams. Quite an upgrade from the old Heathkits I used to build... No disrespect meant the hotwaters and Indians that may be still lurking.

Phil
Santa Fe


Build your own gear
Grow your own food.



Sent from my iPad
Post by Greg
Free market feedback...bring back the 1500 watt amp! 73 de Greg-N4CC
-----Original Message-----
From: elecraft-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Doug Person
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 8:58 PM
To: elecraft at mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA500
It's never as simple as that. I think announcing a product when its on
its final approach is fine. I think getting tons of feedback on what you're
about to invest heavily in is good business. Maybe the truth of the earlier
amps was that there just wasn't enough positive response to them. Maybe
this time they used all the input from the previous attempt to refine the
price point and feature set. Maybe everytime someone here says the price is
too high Eric makes another note. Or someone else says I'll order on the
first day - is another note. This is free market research. Easy access to
the most likely buyers. A big product mistake by a small company like
Elecraft could sink them. I think they took a LOT of notes on the road to
completing the K3. Nobody can argue with the results. And when the KPA-500
is released, it will be based on tons of feedback.
Doug -- K0DXV
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Gary Gregory
2010-09-10 04:29:36 UTC
Permalink
Phil,

Many thanks for the good chuckle mate...unreal

You remember where you put that penny jar now don't you?..or has age clouded
the view?

Seeya

Gary
K3 #679, KPA-500 (Photo) # ????
Post by Phil Townsend
So I got me a ten watt k3... I like it... It is very good. It works. And
I'm thinking of a KPA500.
But to run the KPA500 I gotta get the 100 watt add-on first. Hummmm.... Is
that a deal breaker? Might be. If I don't get the hundred water then I can't
get fully output.!.?&-?xxx
So the true cost of the kPA500 is way more... For me with just ten watts. I
really only want ten watts. But when I feel the need, the need for speed
(yeah I had to say it) I would like to hit the big lever marked kill and
blast them out of their socks.
"Can't hear me OM??
He switches the amp to kill....
How's ur copy now om?
The screenplay is in my head...
Among other things.
I would like to be able to upgrade with out the interim 100 watter.
Yeah, I know, i won't work but I can ask those guys who sweat solder and
cash flow and you never know they just might be able to do it.
To me the K2 was a total mind melt...and the K3 is beyond my wildest
dreams. Quite an upgrade from the old Heathkits I used to build... No
disrespect meant the hotwaters and Indians that may be still lurking.
Phil
Santa Fe
Build your own gear
Grow your own food.
Sent from my iPad
Post by Greg
Free market feedback...bring back the 1500 watt amp! 73 de Greg-N4CC
-----Original Message-----
From: elecraft-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Doug Person
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 8:58 PM
To: elecraft at mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA500
It's never as simple as that. I think announcing a product when its on
its final approach is fine. I think getting tons of feedback on what
you're
Post by Greg
about to invest heavily in is good business. Maybe the truth of the
earlier
Post by Greg
amps was that there just wasn't enough positive response to them. Maybe
this time they used all the input from the previous attempt to refine the
price point and feature set. Maybe everytime someone here says the price
is
Post by Greg
too high Eric makes another note. Or someone else says I'll order on the
first day - is another note. This is free market research. Easy access
to
Post by Greg
the most likely buyers. A big product mistake by a small company like
Elecraft could sink them. I think they took a LOT of notes on the road
to
Post by Greg
completing the K3. Nobody can argue with the results. And when the
KPA-500
Post by Greg
is released, it will be based on tons of feedback.
Doug -- K0DXV
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
--
Gary
VK4FD - Motorhome Mobile
http://www.qsl.net/vk4fd/
K3 #679
For everything else there's Mastercard!!!
István Szabó
2010-09-10 10:42:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Townsend
So I got me a ten watt k3... I like it... It is very good. It works. And I'm thinking of a KPA500.
But to run the KPA500 I gotta get the 100 watt add-on first. Hummmm.... Is that a deal breaker? Might be. If I don't get the hundred water then I can't get fully output.!.?&-?xxx
So the true cost of the kPA500 is way more... For me with just ten watts. I really only want ten watts. But when I feel the need, the need for speed (yeah I had to say it) I would like to hit the big lever marked kill and blast them out of their socks.
"Can't hear me OM??
He switches the amp to kill....
How's ur copy now om?
The screenplay is in my head...
Among other things.
I would like to be able to upgrade with out the interim 100 watter.
Yeah, I know, i won't work but I can ask those guys who sweat solder and cash flow and you never know they just might be able to do it.
To me the K2 was a total mind melt...and the K3 is beyond my wildest dreams. Quite an upgrade from the old Heathkits I used to build... No disrespect meant the hotwaters and Indians that may be still lurking.
Phil
Santa Fe
Build your own gear
Grow your own food.
Sent from my iPad
Post by Greg
Free market feedback...bring back the 1500 watt amp! 73 de Greg-N4CC
-----Original Message-----
From: elecraft-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Doug Person
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 8:58 PM
To: elecraft at mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA500
It's never as simple as that. I think announcing a product when its on
its final approach is fine. I think getting tons of feedback on what you're
about to invest heavily in is good business. Maybe the truth of the earlier
amps was that there just wasn't enough positive response to them. Maybe
this time they used all the input from the previous attempt to refine the
price point and feature set. Maybe everytime someone here says the price is
too high Eric makes another note. Or someone else says I'll order on the
first day - is another note. This is free market research. Easy access to
the most likely buyers. A big product mistake by a small company like
Elecraft could sink them. I think they took a LOT of notes on the road to
completing the K3. Nobody can argue with the results. And when the KPA-500
is released, it will be based on tons of feedback.
Doug -- K0DXV
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Four MOSFETs can be driven out with ten watts id these are MRF150s (or
VRF). You probably need to modify the input circuit. For EB104 needs
only 6 watts.
--
Istv?n Szab?

Success is the ability to go from failure to failure without losing your enthusiasm. - Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)
Phil Townsend
2010-09-10 15:01:41 UTC
Permalink
New 1700 volt sic jfet

http://www.semisouth.com/news/press_releases/2010-04-30_New_1700V_and_1200V_SiC_JFETs.html

Sent from my iPad
They make them do electric car controls. Plus very very low distortion so low almost unmeasurable. I tried them in an audio application and was blown away.
Can't remember the part number but their web site has details.
PhilTownsend
Build your own gear
Grow your own food
Post by István Szabó
Post by Phil Townsend
So I got me a ten watt k3... I like it... It is very good. It works. And I'm thinking of a KPA500.
But to run the KPA500 I gotta get the 100 watt add-on first. Hummmm.... Is that a deal breaker? Might be. If I don't get the hundred water then I can't get fully output.!.?&-?xxx
So the true cost of the kPA500 is way more... For me with just ten watts. I really only want ten watts. But when I feel the need, the need for speed (yeah I had to say it) I would like to hit the big lever marked kill and blast them out of their socks.
"Can't hear me OM??
He switches the amp to kill....
How's ur copy now om?
The screenplay is in my head...
Among other things.
I would like to be able to upgrade with out the interim 100 watter.
Yeah, I know, i won't work but I can ask those guys who sweat solder and cash flow and you never know they just might be able to do it.
To me the K2 was a total mind melt...and the K3 is beyond my wildest dreams. Quite an upgrade from the old Heathkits I used to build... No disrespect meant the hotwaters and Indians that may be still lurking.
Phil
Santa Fe
Build your own gear
Grow your own food.
Sent from my iPad
Post by Greg
Free market feedback...bring back the 1500 watt amp! 73 de Greg-N4CC
-----Original Message-----
From: elecraft-bounces at mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-bounces at mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Doug Person
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 8:58 PM
To: elecraft at mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA500
It's never as simple as that. I think announcing a product when its on
its final approach is fine. I think getting tons of feedback on what you're
about to invest heavily in is good business. Maybe the truth of the earlier
amps was that there just wasn't enough positive response to them. Maybe
this time they used all the input from the previous attempt to refine the
price point and feature set. Maybe everytime someone here says the price is
too high Eric makes another note. Or someone else says I'll order on the
first day - is another note. This is free market research. Easy access to
the most likely buyers. A big product mistake by a small company like
Elecraft could sink them. I think they took a LOT of notes on the road to
completing the K3. Nobody can argue with the results. And when the KPA-500
is released, it will be based on tons of feedback.
Doug -- K0DXV
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Four MOSFETs can be driven out with ten watts id these are MRF150s (or
VRF). You probably need to modify the input circuit. For EB104 needs
only 6 watts.
--
Istv?n Szab?
Success is the ability to go from failure to failure without losing your enthusiasm. - Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Hisashi T Fujinaka
2010-09-10 15:19:17 UTC
Permalink
Is this going to work with the K2?

Yeah, I'm still one of those guys.
--
Hisashi T Fujinaka - htodd at twofifty.com
BSEE(6/86) + BSChem(3/95) + BAEnglish(8/95) + MSCS(8/03) + $2.50 = latte
Bob Nielsen
2010-09-10 15:43:20 UTC
Permalink
There is the little matter of Part 97, Section 97.317, which limits amplifiers to 15 dB gain (10 watts in -> 316 watts out). After all, the FCC still needs to "protect" us from all those CB'ers (does anyone even use CB anymore?)

Bob, N7XY
Post by Phil Townsend
So I got me a ten watt k3... I like it... It is very good. It works. And I'm thinking of a KPA500.
But to run the KPA500 I gotta get the 100 watt add-on first. Hummmm.... Is that a deal breaker? Might be. If I don't get the hundred water then I can't get fully output.!.?&-?xxx
So the true cost of the kPA500 is way more... For me with just ten watts. I really only want ten watts. But when I feel the need, the need for speed (yeah I had to say it) I would like to hit the big lever marked kill and blast them out of their socks.
"Can't hear me OM??
He switches the amp to kill....
How's ur copy now om?
The screenplay is in my head...
Among other things.
I would like to be able to upgrade with out the interim 100 watter.
Yeah, I know, i won't work but I can ask those guys who sweat solder and cash flow and you never know they just might be able to do it.
To me the K2 was a total mind melt...and the K3 is beyond my wildest dreams. Quite an upgrade from the old Heathkits I used to build... No disrespect meant the hotwaters and Indians that may be still lurking.
Wes Stewart
2010-09-10 05:33:46 UTC
Permalink
Right, 500W is hardly worthwhile. Make it at least 2KW PEP. Got to make up for the tuner and coax losses and to live on RTTY.
Post by Greg
Free market feedback...bring back the
1500 watt amp!? 73 de Greg-N4CC
Gary Gregory
2010-09-10 06:02:11 UTC
Permalink
So buy an Alpha, or a Commander. or a........
Some of us don't have a kind regulator that will allow us more than 400W
PEP...yep, some of us do comply...we are in the minority no doubt, but
nevertheless we comply and the KPA-500 fits the bill nicely.

:-)

Gary
Post by Wes Stewart
Right, 500W is hardly worthwhile. Make it at least 2KW PEP. Got to make up
for the tuner and coax losses and to live on RTTY.
Post by Greg
Free market feedback...bring back the
1500 watt amp! 73 de Greg-N4CC
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
--
Gary
VK4FD - Motorhome Mobile
http://www.qsl.net/vk4fd/
K3 #679
For everything else there's Mastercard!!!
Lew Phelps K6LMP
2010-09-10 13:57:45 UTC
Permalink
I think some of the folks who are calling for gigawatt amplifiers (ok, full legal limit...) are losing focus on one key fact: Elecraft has prospered by making products that SOME hams want that NOBODY else makes. The K3 is a perfect example: an exquisite transceiver, quite arguably the best available at any price if you're not a fan of big boxes with big buttons. It's portable, can be expanded incrementally with modules to meet any operator's specific needs, and it's 'way up in the upper right hand corner of the value scatter graph (price on one axis, performance on the other).

So, what could Elecraft bring to the 2KW amplifier market that would (a) differentiate it from the others and (b)stay within the general confines of the K3 "style", which means compact, efficient, modular expandability, and (probably) fit within the K3 form factor.

You cannot build a 2KW amplifier that meets those criteria. Modular? Yes; you could make the power supply and an auto-tuner modular add-ons. Efficient? Yes. Compact? No. K3 form factor? Not a chance. For example, the Alpha 2KW amplifier measures 17.5w x 78.5h x 19.75d. It weighs well over 50 lbs. It costs $5000. There is no way to build a large-output amp that will fit within the K3 form factor. the physical size of components needed to handle that power makes it impossible.

So, some on this list essentially are asking Elecraft to step outside its well-defined and highly successful approach to the market and build a "me too" legal limit amplifier that Elecraft could not meaningfully distinguish from the competition, except for the nameplate. Amplifiers are not that complex, compared to the K3. That lack of complexity is exactly why this is not a market in which Elecraft could compete successfully. There's no way to meaningfully differentiate its 2KW amp from others, except for the nameplate. Yes, they would "include" their superb customer support as a product feature. But I don't think they could bring enough differentiation from the Alpha, Tokyo Hygain, and other high end amplifiers already on the market to break into that market at a volume that would support design and production costs.

The folks in Aptos DO understand the market. They are listening, and watching this dialogue. We can keep that process productive by not asking Elecraft to come out with a product that breaks the laws of physics. It's a small company, with limited design resources. Let's all encourage them to focus on new products that realistically fit within the Elecraft market niche.

my 3 cents worth (inflation, you know...)

Lew K6LMP
Post by Wes Stewart
Right, 500W is hardly worthwhile. Make it at least 2KW PEP. Got to make up for the tuner and coax losses and to live on RTTY.
Post by Greg
Free market feedback...bring back the
1500 watt amp! 73 de Greg-N4CC
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Jack Brabham
2010-09-10 15:57:46 UTC
Permalink
Lew,

Except for issues related to physical size, most of your rationale for
not producing a 2KW amp seems equally applicable to a 500W amp.

The K3, from a marketing perspective, played into a vacant market
niche. The Japanese companies had focused on low-end, how cheap can
we make it radios or over-priced bloated barges for the money is no
object crowd.

There is still nothing out there that is competitive with the K3 on a
price/performance basis.

The amp market on the other hand doesn't seem to have any vacant niches,
MFJ has the low end and mid-range covered and there are a herd of
companies duking it out over the high end market.

There also doesn't seem to be much technical performance differentiation
between the low, mid, and high end amps on the market today. The
dollars/watt number for any particular brand seems to be mostly driven
by how fancy a box the amp is packaged in.

So, I'm thinking that if Elecraft is determined to get into the amp
market the KPA500 will hit most of the product differentiators
available. It matches the K3 appearance and size, maintains the high
portability factor, and can claim some technical innovation for the
built-in PS.

Considering that the principal product differentiators are only germane
to K3 owners maybe the intended market is primarily "existing K3
owners", rather than the general amp market. No doubt that will be
where the Lion's share of the sales go in any case.

Maybe the next Elecraft amp will be something more powerful with an
external PS but still in the K3 box, that would be interesting.

73 Jack KZ5A
Post by Lew Phelps K6LMP
I think some of the folks who are calling for gigawatt amplifiers (ok, full legal limit...) are losing focus on one key fact: Elecraft has prospered by making products that SOME hams want that NOBODY else makes. The K3 is a perfect example: an exquisite transceiver, quite arguably the best available at any price if you're not a fan of big boxes with big buttons. It's portable, can be expanded incrementally with modules to meet any operator's specific needs, and it's 'way up in the upper right hand corner of the value scatter graph (price on one axis, performance on the other).
So, what could Elecraft bring to the 2KW amplifier market that would (a) differentiate it from the others and (b)stay within the general confines of the K3 "style", which means compact, efficient, modular expandability, and (probably) fit within the K3 form factor.
You cannot build a 2KW amplifier that meets those criteria. Modular? Yes; you could make the power supply and an auto-tuner modular add-ons. Efficient? Yes. Compact? No. K3 form factor? Not a chance. For example, the Alpha 2KW amplifier measures 17.5w x 78.5h x 19.75d. It weighs well over 50 lbs. It costs $5000. There is no way to build a large-output amp that will fit within the K3 form factor. the physical size of components needed to handle that power makes it impossible.
So, some on this list essentially are asking Elecraft to step outside its well-defined and highly successful approach to the market and build a "me too" legal limit amplifier that Elecraft could not meaningfully distinguish from the competition, except for the nameplate. Amplifiers are not that complex, compared to the K3. That lack of complexity is exactly why this is not a market in which Elecraft could compete successfully. There's no way to meaningfully differentiate its 2KW amp from others, except for the nameplate. Yes, they would "include" their superb customer support as a product feature. But I don't think they could bring enough differentiation from the Alpha, Tokyo Hygain, and other high end amplifiers already on the market to break into that market at a volume that would support design and production costs.
The folks in Aptos DO understand the market. They are listening, and watching this dialogue. We can keep that process productive by not asking Elecraft to come out with a product that breaks the laws of physics. It's a small company, with limited design resources. Let's all encourage them to focus on new products that realistically fit within the Elecraft market niche.
my 3 cents worth (inflation, you know...)
Lew K6LMP
Post by Wes Stewart
Right, 500W is hardly worthwhile. Make it at least 2KW PEP. Got to make up for the tuner and coax losses and to live on RTTY.
Post by Greg
Free market feedback...bring back the
1500 watt amp! 73 de Greg-N4CC
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Joe Subich, W4TV
2010-09-10 16:15:12 UTC
Permalink
Jack,
Post by Jack Brabham
The amp market on the other hand doesn't seem to have any vacant
niches, MFJ has the low end and mid-range covered and there are a
herd of companies duking it out over the high end market.
The one vacant market niche - and one Elecraft appear to have avoided -
is the US "Legal Limit" solid state segment. There are literally
dozens of 500 - 600 watt solid state amps and several good products
at the 1000 W PEP level but there is nothing that covers 160 - 6
at 1500 W CW/RTTY.

I suppose that begs the question whether there is a market for such
an amplifier considering that the $/W tend to be higher for solid
state amplifiers than tube amplifiers of comparable power levels.
I have my feelings but since it isn't my R&D or marketing dollars on
the line, they're not particularly important.

73,

... Joe, W4TV
Post by Jack Brabham
Lew,
Except for issues related to physical size, most of your rationale for
not producing a 2KW amp seems equally applicable to a 500W amp.
The K3, from a marketing perspective, played into a vacant market
niche. The Japanese companies had focused on low-end, how cheap can
we make it radios or over-priced bloated barges for the money is no
object crowd.
There is still nothing out there that is competitive with the K3 on a
price/performance basis.
The amp market on the other hand doesn't seem to have any vacant niches,
MFJ has the low end and mid-range covered and there are a herd of
companies duking it out over the high end market.
There also doesn't seem to be much technical performance differentiation
between the low, mid, and high end amps on the market today. The
dollars/watt number for any particular brand seems to be mostly driven
by how fancy a box the amp is packaged in.
So, I'm thinking that if Elecraft is determined to get into the amp
market the KPA500 will hit most of the product differentiators
available. It matches the K3 appearance and size, maintains the high
portability factor, and can claim some technical innovation for the
built-in PS.
Considering that the principal product differentiators are only germane
to K3 owners maybe the intended market is primarily "existing K3
owners", rather than the general amp market. No doubt that will be
where the Lion's share of the sales go in any case.
Maybe the next Elecraft amp will be something more powerful with an
external PS but still in the K3 box, that would be interesting.
73 Jack KZ5A
Post by Lew Phelps K6LMP
I think some of the folks who are calling for gigawatt amplifiers (ok, full legal limit...) are losing focus on one key fact: Elecraft has prospered by making products that SOME hams want that NOBODY else makes. The K3 is a perfect example: an exquisite transceiver, quite arguably the best available at any price if you're not a fan of big boxes with big buttons. It's portable, can be expanded incrementally with modules to meet any operator's specific needs, and it's 'way up in the upper right hand corner of the value scatter graph (price on one axis, performance on the other).
So, what could Elecraft bring to the 2KW amplifier market that would (a) differentiate it from the others and (b)stay within the general confines of the K3 "style", which means compact, efficient, modular expandability, and (probably) fit within the K3 form factor.
You cannot build a 2KW amplifier that meets those criteria. Modular? Yes; you could make the power supply and an auto-tuner modular add-ons. Efficient? Yes. Compact? No. K3 form factor? Not a chance. For example, the Alpha 2KW amplifier measures 17.5w x 78.5h x 19.75d. It weighs well over 50 lbs. It costs $5000. There is no way to build a large-output amp that will fit within the K3 form factor. the physical size of components needed to handle that power makes it impossible.
So, some on this list essentially are asking Elecraft to step outside its well-defined and highly successful approach to the market and build a "me too" legal limit amplifier that Elecraft could not meaningfully distinguish from the competition, except for the nameplate. Amplifiers are not that complex, compared to the K3. That lack of complexity is exactly why this is not a market in which Elecraft could compete successfully. There's no way to meaningfully differentiate its 2KW amp from others, except for the nameplate. Yes, they would "include" their superb customer support as a product feature. But I don't think they could bring enough differentiation from the Alpha, Tokyo Hygain, and other high end amplifiers already on the market to break into that market at a volume that would support design and production costs.
The folks in Aptos DO understand the market. They are listening, and watching this dialogue. We can keep that process productive by not asking Elecraft to come out with a product that breaks the laws of physics. It's a small company, with limited design resources. Let's all encourage them to focus on new products that realistically fit within the Elecraft market niche.
my 3 cents worth (inflation, you know...)
Lew K6LMP
Post by Wes Stewart
Right, 500W is hardly worthwhile. Make it at least 2KW PEP. Got to make up for the tuner and coax losses and to live on RTTY.
Post by Greg
Free market feedback...bring back the
1500 watt amp! 73 de Greg-N4CC
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Paul Christensen
2010-09-10 16:37:59 UTC
Permalink
The only SS amp I know of to fulfill the HF+6 "US legal limit" requirement
is the forthcoming SPE 2K-FA. I don't believe FCC certification is yet
complete, but according to SPE, availability is the second half of 2010 to
the rest of the world. SPE's literature places a target price of EUR 4,650,
or USD $6,050 as of today's exchange rate.

Having owned several high-end VT amps as well as the SPE-1K SS amp, I likely
will not own another SS amp until: (1) IMD performance improves to be on-par
with the best VT amps (although SPE appears to be one of the better low-IMD
amps); (2) output power remains absolutely stable with PA temperature; (3)
more advanced, low noise cooling methods are developed; and (4) better
design attention paid to the QSK system.

Paul, W9AC


----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <lists at subich.com>
To: <elecraft at mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA500
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
Jack,
Post by Jack Brabham
The amp market on the other hand doesn't seem to have any vacant
niches, MFJ has the low end and mid-range covered and there are a
herd of companies duking it out over the high end market.
The one vacant market niche - and one Elecraft appear to have avoided -
is the US "Legal Limit" solid state segment. There are literally
dozens of 500 - 600 watt solid state amps and several good products
at the 1000 W PEP level but there is nothing that covers 160 - 6
at 1500 W CW/RTTY.
I suppose that begs the question whether there is a market for such
an amplifier considering that the $/W tend to be higher for solid
state amplifiers than tube amplifiers of comparable power levels.
I have my feelings but since it isn't my R&D or marketing dollars on
the line, they're not particularly important.
73,
... Joe, W4TV
Post by Jack Brabham
Lew,
Except for issues related to physical size, most of your rationale for
not producing a 2KW amp seems equally applicable to a 500W amp.
The K3, from a marketing perspective, played into a vacant market
niche. The Japanese companies had focused on low-end, how cheap can
we make it radios or over-priced bloated barges for the money is no
object crowd.
There is still nothing out there that is competitive with the K3 on a
price/performance basis.
The amp market on the other hand doesn't seem to have any vacant niches,
MFJ has the low end and mid-range covered and there are a herd of
companies duking it out over the high end market.
There also doesn't seem to be much technical performance differentiation
between the low, mid, and high end amps on the market today. The
dollars/watt number for any particular brand seems to be mostly driven
by how fancy a box the amp is packaged in.
So, I'm thinking that if Elecraft is determined to get into the amp
market the KPA500 will hit most of the product differentiators
available. It matches the K3 appearance and size, maintains the high
portability factor, and can claim some technical innovation for the
built-in PS.
Considering that the principal product differentiators are only germane
to K3 owners maybe the intended market is primarily "existing K3
owners", rather than the general amp market. No doubt that will be
where the Lion's share of the sales go in any case.
Maybe the next Elecraft amp will be something more powerful with an
external PS but still in the K3 box, that would be interesting.
73 Jack KZ5A
Post by Lew Phelps K6LMP
I think some of the folks who are calling for gigawatt amplifiers (ok,
full legal limit...) are losing focus on one key fact: Elecraft has
prospered by making products that SOME hams want that NOBODY else makes.
The K3 is a perfect example: an exquisite transceiver, quite arguably
the best available at any price if you're not a fan of big boxes with
big buttons. It's portable, can be expanded incrementally with modules
to meet any operator's specific needs, and it's 'way up in the upper
right hand corner of the value scatter graph (price on one axis,
performance on the other).
So, what could Elecraft bring to the 2KW amplifier market that would (a)
differentiate it from the others and (b)stay within the general confines
of the K3 "style", which means compact, efficient, modular
expandability, and (probably) fit within the K3 form factor.
You cannot build a 2KW amplifier that meets those criteria. Modular?
Yes; you could make the power supply and an auto-tuner modular add-ons.
Efficient? Yes. Compact? No. K3 form factor? Not a chance. For
example, the Alpha 2KW amplifier measures 17.5w x 78.5h x 19.75d. It
weighs well over 50 lbs. It costs $5000. There is no way to build a
large-output amp that will fit within the K3 form factor. the physical
size of components needed to handle that power makes it impossible.
So, some on this list essentially are asking Elecraft to step outside
its well-defined and highly successful approach to the market and build
a "me too" legal limit amplifier that Elecraft could not meaningfully
distinguish from the competition, except for the nameplate. Amplifiers
are not that complex, compared to the K3. That lack of complexity is
exactly why this is not a market in which Elecraft could compete
successfully. There's no way to meaningfully differentiate its 2KW amp
from others, except for the nameplate. Yes, they would "include" their
superb customer support as a product feature. But I don't think they
could bring enough differentiation from the Alpha, Tokyo Hygain, and
other high end amplifiers already on the market to break into that
market at a volume that would support design and production costs.
The folks in Aptos DO understand the market. They are listening, and
watching this dialogue. We can keep that process productive by not
asking Elecraft to come out with a product that breaks the laws of
physics. It's a small company, with limited design resources. Let's all
encourage them to focus on new products that realistically fit within
the Elecraft market niche.
my 3 cents worth (inflation, you know...)
Lew K6LMP
Post by Wes Stewart
Right, 500W is hardly worthwhile. Make it at least 2KW PEP. Got to
make up for the tuner and coax losses and to live on RTTY.
Post by Greg
Free market feedback...bring back the
1500 watt amp! 73 de Greg-N4CC
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Wayne Burdick
2010-09-10 16:49:41 UTC
Permalink
After all the market research, it comes down to intuition. Eric and I
asked a simple question. How cool would be it be if we could pack 500
watts+ and a ultra-low-noise linear supply into an enclosure the same
size as the K3? The answer was obvious to us as well as to our focus
group. We knew it wouldn't be easy, but our talented engineering team--
many of them serious DXers and contesters--jumped at the opportunity.

We think it's an amazing little amp, and we hope some of you will, too.

73,
Wayne
N6KR
AB3EN
2010-09-10 17:53:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wayne Burdick
We think it's an amazing little amp, and we hope some of you will, too.
73,
Wayne
N6KR
I have a K3/100 and a P3 and use a Ten Tec Centaur amp. The setup works well
and is forgiving of my goofs.

I see the KPA500 as an interesting concept and would seriously consider
replacing the Centaur. I suspect that the KPA500 will grow in the future to
a KPA1500 based upon the advancements in PA transistors. One thing I know
for sure is that whatever Wayne puts on the market will be a good value for
the $.

I would like to see a power supply to power all the K3/P3/KPA500/etc. in one
box. That would make the deal sweeter and enable me to get one more box out
from under my desk. Also could we think about a 70cm option for the the 2M
module. The satellites are calling.

73,
Dan AB3EN

-----

Dan AB3EN
--
View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/KPA500-tp5516919p5519252.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Eric Swartz WA6HHQ - Elecraft
2010-09-10 19:37:56 UTC
Permalink
Let's end this thread for now. The number of posts onthe topic have clearly exceeded the normal list limit.

We appreciate the feedback and will post more info on the AMP as it gets closer to release.

73,
Eric
Elecraft List Moderator

www.elecraft.com
_..._
AD6XY
2010-10-17 08:26:35 UTC
Permalink
I only just found it!

Now it is out, what is different between the KPA500 and the Tokyo High
Power range of amplifiers? Auto tuner? That would be great. The KPA500 is
just right for our 400W power limit incidentally - well done there.

Mike
--
View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/KPA500-tp5516919p5643863.html
Sent from the [QRO] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Tony Fegan VE3QF
2010-09-10 19:22:41 UTC
Permalink
Joe,

Why not stack 4 KPA500's and use a combiner!!!

73
Tony Fegan VE3QF
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
The one vacant market niche - and one Elecraft appear to have avoided -
is the US "Legal Limit" solid state segment. There are literally
dozens of 500 - 600 watt solid state amps and several good products
at the 1000 W PEP level but there is nothing that covers 160 - 6
at 1500 W CW/RTTY.
73,
... Joe, W4TV
Post by Jack Brabham
Lew,
Except for issues related to physical size, most of your rationale for
not producing a 2KW amp seems equally applicable to a 500W amp.
The K3, from a marketing perspective, played into a vacant market
niche. The Japanese companies had focused on low-end, how cheap can
we make it radios or over-priced bloated barges for the money is no
object crowd.
There is still nothing out there that is competitive with the K3 on a
price/performance basis.
The amp market on the other hand doesn't seem to have any vacant niches,
MFJ has the low end and mid-range covered and there are a herd of
companies duking it out over the high end market.
There also doesn't seem to be much technical performance differentiation
between the low, mid, and high end amps on the market today. The
dollars/watt number for any particular brand seems to be mostly driven
by how fancy a box the amp is packaged in.
So, I'm thinking that if Elecraft is determined to get into the amp
market the KPA500 will hit most of the product differentiators
available. It matches the K3 appearance and size, maintains the high
portability factor, and can claim some technical innovation for the
built-in PS.
Considering that the principal product differentiators are only germane
to K3 owners maybe the intended market is primarily "existing K3
owners", rather than the general amp market. No doubt that will be
where the Lion's share of the sales go in any case.
Maybe the next Elecraft amp will be something more powerful with an
external PS but still in the K3 box, that would be interesting.
73 Jack KZ5A
Post by Lew Phelps K6LMP
I think some of the folks who are calling for gigawatt amplifiers (ok, full legal limit...) are losing focus on one key fact: Elecraft has prospered by making products that SOME hams want that NOBODY else makes. The K3 is a perfect example: an exquisite transceiver, quite arguably the best available at any price if you're not a fan of big boxes with big buttons. It's portable, can be expanded incrementally with modules to meet any operator's specific needs, and it's 'way up in the upper right hand corner of the value scatter graph (price on one axis, performance on the other).
So, what could Elecraft bring to the 2KW amplifier market that would (a) differentiate it from the others and (b)stay within the general confines of the K3 "style", which means compact, efficient, modular expandability, and (probably) fit within the K3 form factor.
You cannot build a 2KW amplifier that meets those criteria. Modular? Yes; you could make the power supply and an auto-tuner modular add-ons. Efficient? Yes. Compact? No. K3 form factor? Not a chance. For example, the Alpha 2KW amplifier measures 17.5w x 78.5h x 19.75d. It weighs well over 50 lbs. It costs $5000. There is no way to build a large-output amp that will fit within the K3 form factor. the physical size of components needed to handle that power makes it impossible.
So, some on this list essentially are asking Elecraft to step outside its well-defined and highly successful approach to the market and build a "me too" legal limit amplifier that Elecraft could not meaningfully distinguish from the competition, except for the nameplate. Amplifiers are not that complex, compared to the K3. That lack of complexity is exactly why this is not a market in which Elecraft could compete successfully. There's no way to meaningfully differentiate its 2KW amp from others, except for the nameplate. Yes, they would "include" their superb customer support as a product feature. But I don't think they could bring enough differentiation from the Alpha, Tokyo Hygain, and other high end amplifiers already on the market to break into that market at a volume that would support design and production costs.
The folks in Aptos DO understand the market. They are listening, and watching this dialogue. We can keep that process productive by not asking Elecraft to come out with a product that breaks the laws of physics. It's a small company, with limited design resources. Let's all encourage them to focus on new products that realistically fit within the Elecraft market niche.
my 3 cents worth (inflation, you know...)
Lew K6LMP
Post by Wes Stewart
Right, 500W is hardly worthwhile. Make it at least 2KW PEP. Got to make up for the tuner and coax losses and to live on RTTY.
Post by Greg
Free market feedback...bring back the
1500 watt amp! 73 de Greg-N4CC
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Joe Subich, W4TV
2010-09-10 19:59:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Fegan VE3QF
Why not stack 4 KPA500's and use a combiner!!!
Why accept the cost of four separate control systems,
four sets of lowpass filters, four separate power
supplies and four cases?

73,

... Joe, W4TV
Post by Tony Fegan VE3QF
Joe,
Why not stack 4 KPA500's and use a combiner!!!
73
Tony Fegan VE3QF
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
The one vacant market niche - and one Elecraft appear to have avoided -
is the US "Legal Limit" solid state segment. There are literally
dozens of 500 - 600 watt solid state amps and several good products
at the 1000 W PEP level but there is nothing that covers 160 - 6
at 1500 W CW/RTTY.
73,
... Joe, W4TV
Post by Jack Brabham
Lew,
Except for issues related to physical size, most of your rationale for
not producing a 2KW amp seems equally applicable to a 500W amp.
The K3, from a marketing perspective, played into a vacant market
niche. The Japanese companies had focused on low-end, how cheap can
we make it radios or over-priced bloated barges for the money is no
object crowd.
There is still nothing out there that is competitive with the K3 on a
price/performance basis.
The amp market on the other hand doesn't seem to have any vacant niches,
MFJ has the low end and mid-range covered and there are a herd of
companies duking it out over the high end market.
There also doesn't seem to be much technical performance differentiation
between the low, mid, and high end amps on the market today. The
dollars/watt number for any particular brand seems to be mostly driven
by how fancy a box the amp is packaged in.
So, I'm thinking that if Elecraft is determined to get into the amp
market the KPA500 will hit most of the product differentiators
available. It matches the K3 appearance and size, maintains the high
portability factor, and can claim some technical innovation for the
built-in PS.
Considering that the principal product differentiators are only germane
to K3 owners maybe the intended market is primarily "existing K3
owners", rather than the general amp market. No doubt that will be
where the Lion's share of the sales go in any case.
Maybe the next Elecraft amp will be something more powerful with an
external PS but still in the K3 box, that would be interesting.
73 Jack KZ5A
Post by Lew Phelps K6LMP
I think some of the folks who are calling for gigawatt amplifiers (ok, full legal limit...) are losing focus on one key fact: Elecraft has prospered by making products that SOME hams want that NOBODY else makes. The K3 is a perfect example: an exquisite transceiver, quite arguably the best available at any price if you're not a fan of big boxes with big buttons. It's portable, can be expanded incrementally with modules to meet any operator's specific needs, and it's 'way up in the upper right hand corner of the value scatter graph (price on one axis, performance on the other).
So, what could Elecraft bring to the 2KW amplifier market that would (a) differentiate it from the others and (b)stay within the general confines of the K3 "style", which means compact, efficient, modular expandability, and (probably) fit within the K3 form factor.
You cannot build a 2KW amplifier that meets those criteria. Modular? Yes; you could make the power supply and an auto-tuner modular add-ons. Efficient? Yes. Compact? No. K3 form factor? Not a chance. For example, the Alpha 2KW amplifier measures 17.5w x 78.5h x 19.75d. It weighs well over 50 lbs. It costs $5000. There is no way to build a large-output amp that will fit within the K3 form factor. the physical size of components needed to handle that power makes it impossible.
So, some on this list essentially are asking Elecraft to step outside its well-defined and highly successful approach to the market and build a "me too" legal limit amplifier that Elecraft could not meaningfully distinguish from the competition, except for the nameplate. Amplifiers are not that complex, compared to the K3. That lack of complexity is exactly why this is not a market in which Elecraft could compete successfully. There's no way to meaningfully differentiate its 2KW amp from others, except for the nameplate. Yes, they would "include" their superb customer support as a product feature. But I don't think they could bring enough differentiation from the Alpha, Tokyo Hygain, and other high end amplifiers already on the market to break into that market at a volume that would support design and production costs.
The folks in Aptos DO understand the market. They are listening, and watching this dialogue. We can keep that process productive by not asking Elecraft to come out with a product that breaks the laws of physics. It's a small company, with limited design resources. Let's all encourage them to focus on new products that realistically fit within the Elecraft market niche.
my 3 cents worth (inflation, you know...)
Lew K6LMP
Post by Wes Stewart
Right, 500W is hardly worthwhile. Make it at least 2KW PEP. Got to make up for the tuner and coax losses and to live on RTTY.
Post by Greg
Free market feedback...bring back the
1500 watt amp! 73 de Greg-N4CC
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
K5WA
2010-09-10 16:38:23 UTC
Permalink
I couldn't agree more!!



I just bought a new ACOM 2000A because the KPA-1500 was not going to be
built any time soon. I didn't want to spend that much on a non-Elecraft
product, but I'm extremely happy with my purchase. The QSK and automatic
tune up are top notch. I am confident Elecraft can build an equally
satisfying 1500 watt amp. Wayne, us gray haired guys are spending a few
bucks on toys to use during retirement and I've got one more amp slot to
fill in my SO2R desk. ;-)



Bob K5WA







Message: 8

Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 21:30:53 -0600

From: "Greg" <n4cc at cableone.net>

Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA500

To: <elecraft at mailman.qth.net>

Message-ID: <001601cb5098$93238220$b96a8660$@cableone.net>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"



Free market feedback...bring back the 1500 watt amp! 73 de Greg-N4CC
Edward R. Cole
2010-09-10 16:59:35 UTC
Permalink
I am in the same "boat" as it were, having bought the K3/10. If I
were considering the KPA500 then I would be looking for 40-50w driver
for it. That is a 6-dB amp driven by 12w from the K3/10. That ought
to be simple to make. So will K3 roll out one? Or an entrepreneur
ham come up with one? Price ought to be in $125-150 bracket since no
filtering is needed if used with the following KPA500.

I chose another path and bought the 300w EB-27A CCI amp that requires
18w for full output. MY total costs will be <$500 and I probably
could make them for resale at $550. Stay tuned on that later comment ;-)

I haven't built the EB-27A, yet, but will have results on my website
when it is done later this fall/winter.

73, Ed - KL7UW

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 22:10:48 -0600
From: Phil Townsend <philji at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA500
To: Greg <n4cc at cableone.net>
Cc: "elecraft at mailman.qth.net" <elecraft at mailman.qth.net>
Message-ID: <7CCCF520-EFCE-4006-841C-36CB6C592E6D at mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

So I got me a ten watt k3... I like it... It is very good. It works.
And I'm thinking of a KPA500.
But to run the KPA500 I gotta get the 100 watt add-on first.
Hummmm.... Is that a deal breaker? Might be. If I don't get the
hundred water then I can't get fully output.!.?&-?xxx
So the true cost of the kPA500 is way more... For me with just ten
watts. I really only want ten watts. But when I feel the need, the
need for speed (yeah I had to say it) I would like to hit the big
lever marked kill and blast them out of their socks.

I would like to be able to upgrade with out the interim 100 watter.
Yeah, I know, i won't work but I can ask those guys who sweat solder
and cash flow and you never know they just might be able to do it.
To me the K2 was a total mind melt...and the K3 is beyond my wildest
dreams. Quite an upgrade from the old Heathkits I used to build... No
disrespect meant the hotwaters and Indians that may be still lurking.

Phil
Santa Fe



73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
======================================
BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com
EME: 144-QRT*, 432-100w, 1296-QRT*, 3400-fall 2010
DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubususa at hotmail.com
======================================
*temp
Guy Olinger K2AV
2010-09-10 17:08:16 UTC
Permalink
Try a 17 watt "shoe" combined with an internal power supply in place
of the KAT3/KPA3. 73, Guy
I am in the same "boat" as it were, having bought the K3/10. ?If I
were considering the KPA500 then I would be looking for 40-50w driver
for it. ?That is a 6-dB amp driven by 12w from the K3/10. ?That ought
to be simple to make. ?So will K3 roll out one? ?Or an entrepreneur
ham come up with one? ?Price ought to be in $125-150 bracket since no
filtering is needed if used with the following KPA500.
I chose another path and bought the 300w EB-27A CCI amp that requires
18w for full output. ?MY total costs will be <$500 and I probably
could make them for resale at $550. ?Stay tuned on that later comment ;-)
I haven't built the EB-27A, yet, but will have results on my website
when it is done later this fall/winter.
73, Ed - KL7UW
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 22:10:48 -0600
From: Phil Townsend <philji at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA500
To: Greg <n4cc at cableone.net>
Cc: "elecraft at mailman.qth.net" <elecraft at mailman.qth.net>
Message-ID: <7CCCF520-EFCE-4006-841C-36CB6C592E6D at mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
So I got me a ten watt k3... I like it... It is very good. It works.
And I'm thinking of a KPA500.
But to run the KPA500 I gotta get the 100 watt add-on first.
Hummmm.... Is that a deal breaker? Might be. If I don't get the
hundred water then I can't get fully output.!.?&-?xxx
So the true cost of the kPA500 is way more... For me with just ten
watts. I really only want ten watts. But when I feel the need, the
need for speed (yeah I had to say it) I would like to hit the big
lever marked kill and blast them out of their socks.
I would like to be able to upgrade with out the interim 100 watter.
Yeah, I know, i won't work but I can ask those guys who sweat solder
and cash flow and you never know they just might be able to do it.
To me the K2 was a total mind melt...and the K3 is beyond my wildest
dreams. Quite an upgrade from the old Heathkits I used to build... No
disrespect meant the hotwaters and Indians that may be still lurking.
Phil
Santa Fe
73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
======================================
BP40IQ ? 500 KHz - 10-GHz ? www.kl7uw.com
EME: 144-QRT*, 432-100w, 1296-QRT*, 3400-fall 2010
DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubususa at hotmail.com
======================================
*temp
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Jan Erik Holm
2010-09-11 06:46:23 UTC
Permalink
Oh lord all mighty, save us from all IMD. This crap is already made
by RM Italy.
/ Jim
---------------
Post by Edward R. Cole
ham come up with one? Price ought to be in $125-150 bracket since no
filtering is needed if used with the following KPA500.
73, Ed - KL7UW
Mel Farrer
2010-09-10 20:38:34 UTC
Permalink
Not true, Look at the new offering from RMItaly DLA-1000, matched pair of MRF157, $4k ouch.

Mel

--- On Fri, 9/10/10, Tony Fegan VE3QF <jafegan at rogers.com> wrote:

From: Tony Fegan VE3QF <jafegan at rogers.com>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA500
To:
Cc: elecraft at mailman.qth.net
Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 12:22 PM

Joe,

Why not stack 4 KPA500's and use a combiner!!!

73
??? Tony Fegan VE3QF
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
The one vacant market niche - and one Elecraft appear to have avoided -
is the US "Legal Limit" solid state segment.? There are literally
dozens of 500 - 600 watt solid state amps and several good products
at the 1000 W PEP level but there is nothing that covers 160 - 6
at 1500 W CW/RTTY.
73,
? ? ? ... Joe, W4TV
? ???Lew,
Except for issues related to physical size, most of your rationale for
not producing a 2KW amp seems equally applicable to a 500W amp.
The K3, from a marketing perspective, played into a vacant market
niche.? ? The Japanese companies had focused on low-end, how cheap can
we make it radios? or over-priced bloated barges for the money is no
object crowd.
There is still nothing out there that is competitive with the K3 on a
price/performance basis.
The amp market on the other hand doesn't seem to have any vacant niches,
MFJ has the low end and mid-range covered and there are a herd of
companies duking it out over the high end market.
There also doesn't seem to be much technical performance differentiation
between the low, mid, and high end amps on the market today.? ???The
dollars/watt number for any particular brand seems to be mostly driven
by???how fancy a box the amp is packaged in.
So, I'm thinking that if Elecraft is determined to get into the amp
market the KPA500 will hit most of the product differentiators
available.???It matches the K3 appearance and size, maintains the high
portability factor,? and can claim some technical innovation for the
built-in PS.
Considering that the principal product differentiators are only germane
to K3 owners? maybe the intended market is primarily "existing K3
owners", rather than the general amp market.? ? No doubt that will be
where the Lion's share of the sales go in any case.
Maybe the next Elecraft amp will be? something more powerful with an
external PS but still in the K3? box, that would be interesting.
73 Jack KZ5A
I think some of the folks who are calling for gigawatt amplifiers (ok, full legal limit...) are losing focus on one key fact:? Elecraft has prospered by making products that SOME hams want that NOBODY else makes. The K3 is a perfect example: an exquisite transceiver, quite arguably the best available at any price if you're not a fan of big boxes with big buttons. It's portable, can be expanded incrementally with modules to meet any operator's specific needs, and it's 'way up in the upper right hand corner of the value scatter graph (price on one axis, performance on the other).
So, what could Elecraft bring to the 2KW amplifier market that would (a) differentiate it from the others and (b)stay within the general confines of the K3 "style", which means compact, efficient, modular expandability, and (probably) fit within the K3 form factor.
You cannot build a 2KW amplifier that meets those criteria. Modular? Yes; you could make the power supply and an auto-tuner modular add-ons. Efficient? Yes. Compact? No.? K3 form factor?? Not a chance. For example, the Alpha 2KW amplifier measures 17.5w x 78.5h x 19.75d.? It weighs well over 50 lbs. It costs $5000.? There is no way to build a large-output amp that will fit within the K3 form factor. the physical size of components needed to handle that power makes it impossible.
So, some on this list essentially are asking Elecraft to step outside its well-defined and highly successful approach to the market and build a "me too" legal limit amplifier that Elecraft could not meaningfully distinguish from the competition, except for the nameplate. Amplifiers are not that complex, compared to the K3. That lack of complexity is exactly why this is not a market in which Elecraft could compete successfully. There's no way to meaningfully differentiate its 2KW amp from others, except for the nameplate. Yes, they would "include" their superb customer support as a product feature. But I don't think they could bring enough differentiation from the Alpha, Tokyo Hygain, and other high end amplifiers already on the market to break into that market at a volume that would support design and production costs.
The folks in Aptos DO understand the market. They are listening, and watching this dialogue. We can keep that process productive by not asking Elecraft to come out with a product that breaks the laws of physics. It's a small company, with limited design resources. Let's all encourage them to focus on new products that realistically fit within the Elecraft market niche.
my 3 cents worth (inflation, you know...)
Lew K6LMP
Right, 500W is hardly worthwhile. Make it at least 2KW PEP.? Got to make up for the tuner and coax losses and to live on RTTY.
Post by Greg
Free market feedback...bring back the
1500 watt amp!? 73 de Greg-N4CC
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Joe Subich, W4TV
2010-09-10 21:07:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mel Farrer
Not true, Look at the new offering from RMItaly DLA-1000, matched
pair of MRF157,
RM Italy's specifications are an outright fabrication. The MRF-157
is rated for 600 W PEP ... there is no way two of them are going to
make 1500 W CW/RTTY or 1500 W PEP SSB and be clean. Of course RM
Italy's "amplifiers" are notorious IMD generators.

73,

... Joe, W4TV
Post by Mel Farrer
Not true, Look at the new offering from RMItaly DLA-1000, matched pair of MRF157, $4k ouch.
Mel
From: Tony Fegan VE3QF<jafegan at rogers.com>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA500
Cc: elecraft at mailman.qth.net
Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 12:22 PM
Joe,
Why not stack 4 KPA500's and use a combiner!!!
73
Tony Fegan VE3QF
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
The one vacant market niche - and one Elecraft appear to have avoided -
is the US "Legal Limit" solid state segment. There are literally
dozens of 500 - 600 watt solid state amps and several good products
at the 1000 W PEP level but there is nothing that covers 160 - 6
at 1500 W CW/RTTY.
73,
... Joe, W4TV
Post by Jack Brabham
Lew,
Except for issues related to physical size, most of your rationale for
not producing a 2KW amp seems equally applicable to a 500W amp.
The K3, from a marketing perspective, played into a vacant market
niche. The Japanese companies had focused on low-end, how cheap can
we make it radios or over-priced bloated barges for the money is no
object crowd.
There is still nothing out there that is competitive with the K3 on a
price/performance basis.
The amp market on the other hand doesn't seem to have any vacant niches,
MFJ has the low end and mid-range covered and there are a herd of
companies duking it out over the high end market.
There also doesn't seem to be much technical performance differentiation
between the low, mid, and high end amps on the market today. The
dollars/watt number for any particular brand seems to be mostly driven
by how fancy a box the amp is packaged in.
So, I'm thinking that if Elecraft is determined to get into the amp
market the KPA500 will hit most of the product differentiators
available. It matches the K3 appearance and size, maintains the high
portability factor, and can claim some technical innovation for the
built-in PS.
Considering that the principal product differentiators are only germane
to K3 owners maybe the intended market is primarily "existing K3
owners", rather than the general amp market. No doubt that will be
where the Lion's share of the sales go in any case.
Maybe the next Elecraft amp will be something more powerful with an
external PS but still in the K3 box, that would be interesting.
73 Jack KZ5A
Post by Lew Phelps K6LMP
I think some of the folks who are calling for gigawatt amplifiers (ok, full legal limit...) are losing focus on one key fact: Elecraft has prospered by making products that SOME hams want that NOBODY else makes. The K3 is a perfect example: an exquisite transceiver, quite arguably the best available at any price if you're not a fan of big boxes with big buttons. It's portable, can be expanded incrementally with modules to meet any operator's specific needs, and it's 'way up in the upper right hand corner of the value scatter graph (price on one axis, performance on the other).
So, what could Elecraft bring to the 2KW amplifier market that would (a) differentiate it from the others and (b)stay within the general confines of the K3 "style", which means compact, efficient, modular expandability, and (probably) fit within the K3 form factor.
You cannot build a 2KW amplifier that meets those criteria. Modular? Yes; you could make the power supply and an auto-tuner modular add-ons. Efficient? Yes. Compact? No. K3 form factor? Not a chance. For example, the Alpha 2KW amplifier measures 17.5w x 78.5h x 19.75d. It weighs well over 50 lbs. It costs $5000. There is no way to build a large-output amp that will fit within the K3 form factor. the physical size of components needed to handle that power makes it impossible.
So, some on this list essentially are asking Elecraft to step outside its well-defined and highly successful approach to the market and build a "me too" legal limit amplifier that Elecraft could not meaningfully distinguish from the competition, except for the nameplate. Amplifiers are not that complex, compared to the K3. That lack of complexity is exactly why this is not a market in which Elecraft could compete successfully. There's no way to meaningfully differentiate its 2KW amp from others, except for the nameplate. Yes, they would "include" their superb customer support as a product feature. But I don't think they could bring enough differentiation from the Alpha, Tokyo Hygain, and other high end amplifiers already on the market to break into that market at a volume that would support design and production costs.
The folks in Aptos DO understand the market. They are listening, and watching this dialogue. We can keep that process productive by not asking Elecraft to come out with a product that breaks the laws of physics. It's a small company, with limited design resources. Let's all encourage them to focus on new products that realistically fit within the Elecraft market niche.
my 3 cents worth (inflation, you know...)
Lew K6LMP
Post by Wes Stewart
Right, 500W is hardly worthwhile. Make it at least 2KW PEP. Got to make up for the tuner and coax losses and to live on RTTY.
Post by Greg
Free market feedback...bring back the
1500 watt amp! 73 de Greg-N4CC
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Jack Brabham
2010-09-10 22:15:55 UTC
Permalink
Seems like one of the list regulars ran some test on a RM 200W amp
some months back, the gist of which was that it had horrible IMD at its
rated power (200W) but had typical 13.8V IMD numbers at 100W.

So maybe it's actually a 1000W PEP amp and a some odd hundred watt CW
amp, from a company with a poor reputation and no service for $4 per
watt. What a deal.

I think these amps are better regarded in the EU but they probably
understand how to interpret Italian advertising than we do over here.

73 Jack KZ5A
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
Post by Mel Farrer
Not true, Look at the new offering from RMItaly DLA-1000, matched
pair of MRF157,
RM Italy's specifications are an outright fabrication. The MRF-157
is rated for 600 W PEP ... there is no way two of them are going to
make 1500 W CW/RTTY or 1500 W PEP SSB and be clean. Of course RM
Italy's "amplifiers" are notorious IMD generators.
73,
... Joe, W4TV
Post by Mel Farrer
Not true, Look at the new offering from RMItaly DLA-1000, matched pair
of MRF157, $4k ouch.
Mel
From: Tony Fegan VE3QF<jafegan at rogers.com>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA500
Cc: elecraft at mailman.qth.net
Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 12:22 PM
Joe,
Why not stack 4 KPA500's and use a combiner!!!
73
Tony Fegan VE3QF
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
The one vacant market niche - and one Elecraft appear to have avoided -
is the US "Legal Limit" solid state segment. There are literally
dozens of 500 - 600 watt solid state amps and several good products
at the 1000 W PEP level but there is nothing that covers 160 - 6
at 1500 W CW/RTTY.
73,
... Joe, W4TV
Post by Jack Brabham
Lew,
Except for issues related to physical size, most of your rationale for
not producing a 2KW amp seems equally applicable to a 500W amp.
The K3, from a marketing perspective, played into a vacant market
niche. The Japanese companies had focused on low-end, how cheap can
we make it radios or over-priced bloated barges for the money is no
object crowd.
There is still nothing out there that is competitive with the K3 on a
price/performance basis.
The amp market on the other hand doesn't seem to have any vacant niches,
MFJ has the low end and mid-range covered and there are a herd of
companies duking it out over the high end market.
There also doesn't seem to be much technical performance differentiation
between the low, mid, and high end amps on the market today. The
dollars/watt number for any particular brand seems to be mostly driven
by how fancy a box the amp is packaged in.
So, I'm thinking that if Elecraft is determined to get into the amp
market the KPA500 will hit most of the product differentiators
available. It matches the K3 appearance and size, maintains the high
portability factor, and can claim some technical innovation for the
built-in PS.
Considering that the principal product differentiators are only germane
to K3 owners maybe the intended market is primarily "existing K3
owners", rather than the general amp market. No doubt that will be
where the Lion's share of the sales go in any case.
Maybe the next Elecraft amp will be something more powerful with an
external PS but still in the K3 box, that would be interesting.
73 Jack KZ5A
Post by Lew Phelps K6LMP
I think some of the folks who are calling for gigawatt amplifiers (ok, full legal limit...) are losing focus on one key fact: Elecraft has prospered by making products that SOME hams want that NOBODY else makes. The K3 is a perfect example: an exquisite transceiver, quite arguably the best available at any price if you're not a fan of big boxes with big buttons. It's portable, can be expanded incrementally with modules to meet any operator's specific needs, and it's 'way up in the upper right hand corner of the value scatter graph (price on one axis, performance on the other).
So, what could Elecraft bring to the 2KW amplifier market that would (a) differentiate it from the others and (b)stay within the general confines of the K3 "style", which means compact, efficient, modular expandability, and (probably) fit within the K3 form factor.
You cannot build a 2KW amplifier that meets those criteria. Modular? Yes; you could make the power supply and an auto-tuner modular add-ons. Efficient? Yes. Compact? No. K3 form factor? Not a chance. For example, the Alpha 2KW amplifier measures 17.5w x 78.5h x 19.75d. It weighs well over 50 lbs. It costs $5000. There is no way to build a large-output amp that will fit within the K3 form factor. the physical size of components needed to handle that power makes it impossible.
So, some on this list essentially are asking Elecraft to step outside its well-defined and highly successful approach to the market and build a "me too" legal limit amplifier that Elecraft could not meaningfully distinguish from the competition, except for the nameplate. Amplifiers are not that complex, compared to the K3. That lack of complexity is exactly why this is not a market in which Elecraft could compete successfully. There's no way to meaningfully differentiate its 2KW amp from others, except for the nameplate. Yes, they would "include" their superb customer support as a product feature. But I don't think they could bring enough differentiation from the Alpha, Tokyo Hygain, and other high end amplifiers already on the market to break into that market at a volume that would support design and production costs.
The folks in Aptos DO understand the market. They are listening, and watching this dialogue. We can keep that process productive by not asking Elecraft to come out with a product that breaks the laws of physics. It's a small company, with limited design resources. Let's all encourage them to focus on new products that realistically fit within the Elecraft market niche.
my 3 cents worth (inflation, you know...)
Lew K6LMP
Post by Wes Stewart
Right, 500W is hardly worthwhile. Make it at least 2KW PEP. Got to make up for the tuner and coax losses and to live on RTTY.
Post by Greg
Free market feedback...bring back the
1500 watt amp! 73 de Greg-N4CC
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
juergen
2010-09-10 22:46:08 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jack

They are not "better regarded"in Europe. They have always been CB amps in the eyes of most hams.

Its mostly new hams from the CB band who like using these horrible amps. RM HF amps have terrible IMD performance especially under dynamic voice conditions.

The positive reviews by well meaning hams are mostly flawed because they use incorrect measurement procedures. I cant see how any amp with -26db pep 3rd IMD figures is something that is acceptable for a high power amp.

The dynamic on air IMD performance of these amps when used with the typically ham transceiver causes terrible splatter. Hams who run these amps are very easy to spot with a SDR receiver.

I like others wont buy a solid state amp until the IMD performance at least matches the better tube amplifiers.

The last thing we need to do as hams is crap in our own nest just because its modern or new!


73
John
From: Jack Brabham <kz5a at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RM Italy BLA 1000 (was - KPA500)
To: elecraft at mailman.qth.net
Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 3:15 PM
? Seems like one of the list
regulars ran some test on a RM 200W amp
some months back, the gist of which was that it had
horrible IMD at its
rated power (200W) but had typical 13.8V? IMD numbers
at 100W.
So maybe it's actually a 1000W PEP amp and a some odd
hundred watt CW
amp, from a company with a poor reputation and no service
for $4 per
watt.???What a deal.
I think these amps are better regarded in the EU but they
probably
understand how to interpret Italian advertising? than
we do over here.
73 Jack KZ5A
???>? Not true, Look at the new
offering from RMItaly DLA-1000, matched
???>? pair of MRF157,
RM Italy's specifications are an outright
fabrication.? The MRF-157
is rated for 600 W PEP ... there is no way two of them
are going to
make 1500 W CW/RTTY or 1500 W PEP SSB and be
clean.? Of course RM
Italy's "amplifiers" are notorious IMD generators.
73,
? ? ? ... Joe, W4TV
Post by Mel Farrer
Not true, Look at the new offering from RMItaly
DLA-1000, matched pair
???>? of MRF157, $4k ouch.
Post by Mel Farrer
Mel
From: Tony Fegan VE3QF<jafegan at rogers.com>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA500
Cc: elecraft at mailman.qth.net
Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 12:22 PM
Joe,
Why not stack 4 KPA500's and use a combiner!!!
73
? ? ???Tony Fegan VE3QF
On Fri-10-Sep-10 12:15 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
The one vacant market niche - and one Elecraft
appear to have avoided -
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
is the US "Legal Limit" solid state
segment.? There are literally
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
dozens of 500 - 600 watt solid state amps and
several good products
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
at the 1000 W PEP level but there is nothing
that covers 160 - 6
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
at 1500 W CW/RTTY.
73,
? ? ? ???... Joe,
W4TV
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
? ? ? ? Lew,
Except for issues related to physical
size, most of your rationale for
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
not producing a 2KW amp seems equally
applicable to a 500W amp.
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
The K3, from a marketing perspective,
played into a vacant market
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
niche.? ? The Japanese companies
had focused on low-end, how cheap can
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
we make it radios? or over-priced
bloated barges for the money is no
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
object crowd.
There is still nothing out there that is
competitive with the K3 on a
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
price/performance basis.
The amp market on the other hand doesn't
seem to have any vacant niches,
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
MFJ has the low end and mid-range covered
and there are a herd of
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
companies duking it out over the high end
market.
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
There also doesn't seem to be much
technical performance differentiation
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
between the low, mid, and high end amps on
the market today.? ???The
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
dollars/watt number for any particular
brand seems to be mostly driven
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
by???how fancy a box the
amp is packaged in.
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
So, I'm thinking that if Elecraft is
determined to get into the amp
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
market the KPA500 will hit most of the
product differentiators
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
available.???It matches the
K3 appearance and size, maintains the high
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
portability factor,? and can claim
some technical innovation for the
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
built-in PS.
Considering that the principal product
differentiators are only germane
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
to K3 owners? maybe the intended
market is primarily "existing K3
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
owners", rather than the general amp
market.? ? No doubt that will be
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
where the Lion's share of the sales go in
any case.
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
Maybe the next Elecraft amp will be?
something more powerful with an
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
external PS but still in the K3? box,
that would be interesting.
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
73 Jack KZ5A
On 9/10/2010 8:57 AM, Lew Phelps K6LMP
Post by Lew Phelps K6LMP
I think some of the folks who are
calling for gigawatt amplifiers (ok, full legal limit...)
are losing focus on one key fact:? Elecraft has
prospered by making products that SOME hams want that NOBODY
else makes. The K3 is a perfect example: an exquisite
transceiver, quite arguably the best available at any price
if you're not a fan of big boxes with big buttons. It's
portable, can be expanded incrementally with modules to meet
any operator's specific needs, and it's 'way up in the upper
right hand corner of the value scatter graph (price on one
axis, performance on the other).
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
Post by Lew Phelps K6LMP
So, what could Elecraft bring to the
2KW amplifier market that would (a) differentiate it from
the others and (b)stay within the general confines of the K3
"style", which means compact, efficient, modular
expandability, and (probably) fit within the K3 form
factor.
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
Post by Lew Phelps K6LMP
You cannot build a 2KW amplifier that
meets those criteria. Modular? Yes; you could make the power
supply and an auto-tuner modular add-ons. Efficient? Yes.
Compact? No.? K3 form factor?? Not a chance. For
example, the Alpha 2KW amplifier measures 17.5w x 78.5h x
19.75d.? It weighs well over 50 lbs. It costs
$5000.? There is no way to build a large-output amp
that will fit within the K3 form factor. the physical size
of components needed to handle that power makes it
impossible.
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
Post by Lew Phelps K6LMP
So, some on this list essentially are
asking Elecraft to step outside its well-defined and highly
successful approach to the market and build a "me too" legal
limit amplifier that Elecraft could not meaningfully
distinguish from the competition, except for the nameplate.
Amplifiers are not that complex, compared to the K3. That
lack of complexity is exactly why this is not a market in
which Elecraft could compete successfully. There's no way to
meaningfully differentiate its 2KW amp from others, except
for the nameplate. Yes, they would "include" their superb
customer support as a product feature. But I don't think
they could bring enough differentiation from the Alpha,
Tokyo Hygain, and other high end amplifiers already on the
market to break into that market at a volume that would
support design and production costs.
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
Post by Lew Phelps K6LMP
The folks in Aptos DO understand the
market. They are listening, and watching this dialogue. We
can keep that process productive by not asking Elecraft to
come out with a product that breaks the laws of physics.
It's a small company, with limited design resources. Let's
all encourage them to focus on new products that
realistically fit within the Elecraft market niche.
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
Post by Lew Phelps K6LMP
my 3 cents worth (inflation, you
know...)
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
Post by Lew Phelps K6LMP
Lew K6LMP
On Sep 9, 2010, at 10:33 PM, Wes
Post by Wes Stewart
Right, 500W is hardly worthwhile.
Make it at least 2KW PEP.? Got to make up for the tuner
and coax losses and to live on RTTY.
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
Post by Lew Phelps K6LMP
Post by Wes Stewart
--- On Thu, 9/9/10, Greg<n4cc at cableone.net>?
Post by Greg
Free market feedback...bring
back the
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
Post by Lew Phelps K6LMP
Post by Wes Stewart
Post by Greg
1500 watt amp!? 73 de
Greg-N4CC
______________________________________________________________
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
Post by Lew Phelps K6LMP
Post by Wes Stewart
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email
list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
Post by Lew Phelps K6LMP
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Post by Mel Farrer
Post by Joe Subich, W4TV
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Post by Mel Farrer
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Post by Mel Farrer
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft at mailman.qth.net
This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...