Discussion:
[Elecraft] Torroids?
nr5a
2002-08-20 01:46:00 UTC
Permalink
I'm getting closer and closer to ordering my K2. In fact there is a chance I
will be able to order it next week. Sooner than I had planned! Yippie!!!

Now, someone please tell me I don't have to wind torroids!! Please tell me
that! I hate those things. Anyway was wondering do I ?? or don't I ??

Jerry - NR5A - South Dakota
Jim Larsen - AL7FS
2002-08-20 01:56:00 UTC
Permalink
Well, Jerry, I had to wind them for my K2 so you may also be allowed to do
that. However, if money is no object, check out the following URL:

http://www.elecraft.com/Apps/ToroidGuy/toroidguy_prewound_toroids.htm

You can buy them prewound at a price that may be worth it if you don't like
to wind toroids.

So there you go. Have fun.


73, Jim
Jim Larsen, AL7FS, Anchorage, Alaska
(BP51cc) - 61.101 North, 149.824 West
ex-WA0LPK AK-QRP#003 SOC#003 10-X-#12094
Post by nr5a
I'm getting closer and closer to ordering my K2. In fact there is a chance I
will be able to order it next week. Sooner than I had planned! Yippie!!!
Now, someone please tell me I don't have to wind torroids!! Please tell me
that! I hate those things. Anyway was wondering do I ?? or don't I ??
Jerry - NR5A - South Dakota
--
B***@aol.com
2002-08-20 02:01:01 UTC
Permalink
Winding toroids, like being born or paying income taxes, is
an inevitable part of life (and the construction of the Elecraft
K2). Like you, I feared it far more than root canal work or skin diving
for pirahna. Once I wound one or two, I discovered it was
actually a lot of fun and mine looked better than those in
most of the photos you see of your typical toroid.

If you still would rather not wind them yourself, there is
at least one independent vendor posted on the Elecraft
web site who will, for a nominal fee, supply you with a
complete set of prepared toroids.

In either case, you'll love the radio.

73,

Bob WA4FOM


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nr5a
2002-08-20 03:32:00 UTC
Permalink
Ok, Ok, somehow I knew you guys was going to tell me that. I was just
curious. I'll enjoy winding all the torroids!(yeah, right!) hi hi

Jerry
----- Original Message -----
From: <***@aol.com>
To: <***@hills.net>; <***@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Torroids?
Post by B***@aol.com
Winding toroids, like being born or paying income taxes, is
an inevitable part of life (and the construction of the Elecraft
K2). Like you, I feared it far more than root canal work or skin diving
for pirahna. Once I wound one or two, I discovered it was
actually a lot of fun and mine looked better than those in
most of the photos you see of your typical toroid.
If you still would rather not wind them yourself, there is
at least one independent vendor posted on the Elecraft
web site who will, for a nominal fee, supply you with a
complete set of prepared toroids.
In either case, you'll love the radio.
73,
Bob WA4FOM
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Jim W7RY" (Jim W7RY)
2002-08-20 06:29:00 UTC
Permalink
I have some of mine would "backwards". The leads come out the wrong way on
the core.... I am going to rewind 2 of them that are that way.... I am
right handed... I think the folks are Elecraft must be left handed......
It's very awkward for me to wind them the way the board is laid out....

Has anyone else noticed this ??

Just one of those things that make you go HMMMM.......

73
Jim W7RY
#2740
----- Original Message -----
From: "nr5a" <***@hills.net>
To: <***@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Torroids?
Post by nr5a
Ok, Ok, somehow I knew you guys was going to tell me that. I was just
curious. I'll enjoy winding all the torroids!(yeah, right!) hi hi
Jerry
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Torroids?
Post by B***@aol.com
Winding toroids, like being born or paying income taxes, is
an inevitable part of life (and the construction of the Elecraft
K2). Like you, I feared it far more than root canal work or skin diving
for pirahna. Once I wound one or two, I discovered it was
actually a lot of fun and mine looked better than those in
most of the photos you see of your typical toroid.
If you still would rather not wind them yourself, there is
at least one independent vendor posted on the Elecraft
web site who will, for a nominal fee, supply you with a
complete set of prepared toroids.
In either case, you'll love the radio.
73,
Bob WA4FOM
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Mike Branca" (Mike Branca)
2002-08-20 12:21:00 UTC
Permalink
Actually Jim you can wind them either way as long as the leads come out in
the correct places. You can wind them forward or backwards but they still
must look like the drawings especially the transformer toroids. I am right
handed and had no problems there even tho I am muscle bound with fat
fingers.

Mike W3IRZ


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim W7RY" <***@centurytel.net>
To: "nr5a" <***@hills.net>; <***@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 1:21 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] Torroids? Left or Right Hand wind ??
Post by Jim W7RY" (Jim W7RY)
I have some of mine would "backwards". The leads come out the wrong way on
the core.... I am going to rewind 2 of them that are that way.... I am
right handed... I think the folks are Elecraft must be left handed......
It's very awkward for me to wind them the way the board is laid out....
Has anyone else noticed this ??
Just one of those things that make you go HMMMM.......
73
Jim W7RY
#2740
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Torroids?
Post by nr5a
Ok, Ok, somehow I knew you guys was going to tell me that. I was just
curious. I'll enjoy winding all the torroids!(yeah, right!) hi hi
Jerry
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Torroids?
Post by B***@aol.com
Winding toroids, like being born or paying income taxes, is
an inevitable part of life (and the construction of the Elecraft
K2). Like you, I feared it far more than root canal work or skin diving
for pirahna. Once I wound one or two, I discovered it was
actually a lot of fun and mine looked better than those in
most of the photos you see of your typical toroid.
If you still would rather not wind them yourself, there is
at least one independent vendor posted on the Elecraft
web site who will, for a nominal fee, supply you with a
complete set of prepared toroids.
In either case, you'll love the radio.
73,
Bob WA4FOM
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Francis Belliveau
2002-08-21 14:51:01 UTC
Permalink
On: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 7:12 AM
Post by Mike Branca" (Mike Branca)
Actually Jim you can wind them either way as long as the leads come out in
the correct places. You can wind them forward or backwards but they still
must look like the drawings especially the transformer toroids. I am right
handed and had no problems there even tho I am muscle bound with fat
fingers.
Careful here. I'm sure that what Mike says is true about a simple toroid
inductor, I'm not so sure about the transformers.

Practice doing things exactly like the pictures in the manual on the simple
toroids where it doesn't matter. Then when the multiple winding things
(transformers) come up you will be able to get it right.

Actually these things scared me also. I still cannot follow directions for
most transformers in construction articles. However, the Elecraft
directions were no problem. I did get one wrong but noticed it when I
compared it to the manual before installing.

Remember, check twice before installing. That will avoid headaches
troubleshooting things like, "Receive sounds a bit weak on 80m" or whatever.
You will need to do this even if you buy the pre-wound ones since you will
still run the risk of incorrect parts substitution/swap.

Fran
Phil Wheeler
2002-08-20 14:52:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim W7RY" (Jim W7RY)
I have some of mine would "backwards". The leads come out the wrong way on
the core.... I am going to rewind 2 of them that are that way.... I am
right handed... I think the folks are Elecraft must be left handed......
It's very awkward for me to wind them the way the board is laid out....
Has anyone else noticed this ??
I'm right-handed (nominally) and I've never found any problems in
winding any Elecraft Toroid (I've wound every one for every product they
have). Sometimes the transformers baffle me for a time, but all those
have come out OK, too.

73, Phil
Douglas Westover
2002-08-20 02:08:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jerry,

Don't let the torroids spook you, they're really not that
big a deal and the feeling of accomplishment is worth the
effort.

However, checkout the Elecraft web page and you will find
that you can buy a set of prewound and stripped torrids
at a pretty reasonable price.

Either way, you're going to enjoy your K2!

73,
Doug
W6JD


Don't let the t
----- Original Message -----
From: "nr5a" <***@hills.net>
To: <***@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 4:26 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Torroids?
Post by nr5a
I'm getting closer and closer to ordering my K2. In fact there is a chance I
will be able to order it next week. Sooner than I had planned! Yippie!!!
Now, someone please tell me I don't have to wind torroids!! Please tell me
that! I hate those things. Anyway was wondering do I ?? or don't I ??
Jerry - NR5A - South Dakota
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K7FD N7SG
2002-08-20 02:14:00 UTC
Permalink
...hey, you're gonna miss the best part. Step up to the plate and wind those
suckers...you won't regret it.

73 John K7FD
Post by nr5a
I'm getting closer and closer to ordering my K2. In fact there is a chance
I
will be able to order it next week. Sooner than I had planned! Yippie!!!
Now, someone please tell me I don't have to wind torroids!! Please tell me
that! I hate those things. Anyway was wondering do I ?? or don't I ??
Jerry - NR5A - South Dakota
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Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
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Rod N0RC
2002-08-20 02:14:06 UTC
Permalink
Jerry,

Winding toroids builds character and makes you a better person all
around. ;-)

The worst part about winding toroids is thinking about it.

GL,

Rod N0RC
Fort Collins, CO

----- Original Message -----
From: "nr5a" <***@hills.net>
To: <***@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 5:26 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Torroids?
Post by nr5a
I'm getting closer and closer to ordering my K2. In fact there is a chance I
will be able to order it next week. Sooner than I had planned!
Yippie!!!
Post by nr5a
Now, someone please tell me I don't have to wind torroids!! Please tell me
that! I hate those things. Anyway was wondering do I ?? or don't I ??
Jerry - NR5A - South Dakota
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Postings must be plain text (no HTML or attachments).
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Brian" (Brian)
2002-08-20 02:20:04 UTC
Permalink
Ok..you don't have to wind torroids...you can buy them already wound.


----- Original Message -----
From: "nr5a" <***@hills.net>
To: <***@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 6:26 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Torroids?
Post by nr5a
I'm getting closer and closer to ordering my K2. In fact there is a chance I
will be able to order it next week. Sooner than I had planned!
Yippie!!!
Post by nr5a
Now, someone please tell me I don't have to wind torroids!! Please tell me
that! I hate those things. Anyway was wondering do I ?? or don't I ??
Jerry - NR5A - South Dakota
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Postings must be plain text (no HTML or attachments).
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Mike McCoy
2002-08-20 03:02:01 UTC
Permalink
Warning: legend has it the source of the mysterious but oft mentioned K2
'Mojo' is in the owner/builder wound Toroids.

Yea, I know it sounds like mumbo jumbo nonsense but I wound my own. Who am I
to question the spirits of the ether?

73,
Mike - AD5IU
Post by Douglas Westover
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 6:26 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Torroids?
Post by nr5a
I'm getting closer and closer to ordering my K2. In fact there is a
chance I
Post by nr5a
will be able to order it next week. Sooner than I had planned!
Yippie!!!
Post by nr5a
Now, someone please tell me I don't have to wind torroids!! Please
tell me
Post by nr5a
that! I hate those things. Anyway was wondering do I ?? or don't I
??
Post by nr5a
Jerry - NR5A - South Dakota
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Charles Bland
2002-08-20 03:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Real men wind their own toroids......

Note nr5a's stunning brilliance and Chuck's apt reply (gack!)

From: "nr5a" <***@hills.net>
To: <***@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: [Elecraft] Torroids?
Date sent: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:26:48 -0500
Post by nr5a
I'm getting closer and closer to ordering my K2. In fact there is a chance I
will be able to order it next week. Sooner than I had planned! Yippie!!!
Now, someone please tell me I don't have to wind torroids!! Please tell me
that! I hate those things. Anyway was wondering do I ?? or don't I ??
Jerry - NR5A - South Dakota
_______________________________________________
You must be a list member to post to the list.
Postings must be plain text (no HTML or attachments).
See: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Elecraft Web Page: http://www.elecraft.com
Mike Harris
2002-08-20 04:33:00 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by nr5a
Now, someone please tell me I don't have to wind torroids!! Please tell me
that! I hate those things. Anyway was wondering do I ?? or don't I ??
Well you don't have to. However, I think the whole toroid thing is rather
over stated. Firstly there is nothing magic about winding them, it is dead
easy and quite pleasing to get a good even winding. Tinning the leads is
also dead easy using the solder blob technique. I feel that many people are
worried about it because a few people have made a big noise about it. I
will accept that due to eye sight or other problems some people will have a
genuine reason other than being spooked by the list. I would say, go for
it. If it doesn't do it for you then contact whoever it is supplies 'em
ready made.

There was a thread a while back about problems with the KPA100 power pole
connectors. Again, when I came to that stage I wondered what the problem
was, they just snapped together.

Run up against a problem, just post a message.

Too much paranoia.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO (IOTA SA-002)
GQRP 10148
K2 #1400
k***@ENTERZONE.NET
2002-08-20 07:22:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Harris
Hi,
Post by nr5a
Now, someone please tell me I don't have to wind torroids!! Please tell me
that! I hate those things. Anyway was wondering do I ?? or don't I ??
Well you don't have to. However, I think the whole toroid thing is rather
over stated. Firstly there is nothing magic about winding them, it is dead
easy and quite pleasing to get a good even winding. Tinning the leads is
also dead easy using the solder blob technique. I feel that many people are
worried about it because a few people have made a big noise about it. I
I agree that there is nothing magic about winding torroids. I wound the
ones for my base K2, KSB2 and K160M. When I built the KPA100, I contacted
the "Torroid Guy" and was quite pleased to have the complete KPA100
torroid set in my grubby little paws a day before Hamvention 2002 where I
purchased the KPA100.

My reason was two fold. While I enjoyed winding the torroids, I didn't
enjoy it NEARLY as much as my wife enjoyed waiting until I was nearly done
with one and started rambling off random numbers. (Mean, huh?) So, I
wanted to save myself some frustration AND some time. The torroids from
the "Torroid Guy" are wonderful.

73 de John - KC4KGU
K2/100 #2490
Tom Hammond NØSS
2002-08-20 16:39:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Bower N4NMR
I think I missed part of the discussion. What is the "solder blob"
technique for tinning toroids?
HOT IRON... use the widest tip available, if you have a choice).

Melt a small blob ' of solder into the tip.

Stick the CUT end of the wire into the blob. The bare copper at the end of
the wire helps to more rapidly distribute the heat.

WAIT a few seconds until you can see the enamel smoke and start to bubble.

Slowly add more wire length to the blob as the enamel burns off.

Add a bit more solder if necessary, actually to add more rosin.

Continue until you have tinned the lead as far up as required.

Pull the wire out slowly, leaving a nicely tinned lead.

You may find a tiny bit of burnt rosin remaining. You can scrape this off
by pulling the wire between your index finger and thumbnail.

DONE.

Took a LOT longer to tell about it than to actually DO it.

73,

Tom Hammond N0SS
Michael Bower N4NMR
2002-08-20 12:25:59 UTC
Permalink
John and the gang,

I think I missed part of the discussion. What is the "solder blob"
technique for tinning toroids?

Michael N4NMR


-----Original Message-----
From: elecraft-***@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-***@mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of ***@ENTERZONE.NET
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 2:15 AM
To: Mike Harris
Cc: nr5a; ***@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Torroids?
Post by Mike Harris
Hi,
Post by nr5a
Now, someone please tell me I don't have to wind torroids!! Please tell
me
Post by Mike Harris
Post by nr5a
that! I hate those things. Anyway was wondering do I ?? or don't I ??
Well you don't have to. However, I think the whole toroid thing is rather
over stated. Firstly there is nothing magic about winding them, it is
dead
Post by Mike Harris
easy and quite pleasing to get a good even winding. Tinning the leads is
also dead easy using the solder blob technique. I feel that many people
are
Post by Mike Harris
worried about it because a few people have made a big noise about it. I
I agree that there is nothing magic about winding torroids. I wound the
ones for my base K2, KSB2 and K160M. When I built the KPA100, I contacted
the "Torroid Guy" and was quite pleased to have the complete KPA100
torroid set in my grubby little paws a day before Hamvention 2002 where I
purchased the KPA100.

My reason was two fold. While I enjoyed winding the torroids, I didn't
enjoy it NEARLY as much as my wife enjoyed waiting until I was nearly done
with one and started rambling off random numbers. (Mean, huh?) So, I
wanted to save myself some frustration AND some time. The torroids from
the "Torroid Guy" are wonderful.

73 de John - KC4KGU
K2/100 #2490


_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list: ***@mailman.qth.net
You must be a list member to post to the list.
Postings must be plain text (no HTML or attachments).
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Rolf Schröder
2002-08-20 13:15:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Bower N4NMR
John and the gang,
I think I missed part of the discussion. What is the "solder blob"
technique for tinning toroids?
Hi Michael,
blop technology is quite an easy and reliable way to tin the toroid leads=
=2E Use=20
a larger tip and add a larger portion of tin to the tip of your soldering=
=20
iron (I prefer temperature controlled ones). The hot solder will burn the=
=20
enamel of the wire and tin the lead at the same time. The whole process i=
s=20
described a little more in detail in a downloadable file on Eleccrafts=20
website, it is called "Ask Dr. Solder" as far as I remember. This way I h=
ad=20
up to now only one pttl ("poorly tinned toroid lead").
--=20
Best Regards
Mit freundlichen Gr=FC=DFen
Rolf Schr=F6der

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.=20
- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 -=20
Christoph Rheker
2002-08-20 12:36:00 UTC
Permalink
Hallo Michael,

it's on the web pages, search for:

"Toroid Wire Tinning Notes"

I prefer to remove a few millimeters off the insulation and then solder the wire.

73 de Chris, DL4YAO
Post by Michael Bower N4NMR
John and the gang,
I think I missed part of the discussion. What is the "solder blob"
technique for tinning toroids?
Michael N4NMR
Benjy Cline AC4XO
2002-08-20 15:49:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

Concerning the solder blob method for removing the enamel and
tinning leads:

I never got this to work while building the base K2.
I finally just used the match method. But, then, with the KPA 100
toroids and a different tip, I was able to get the solder blob method
to work, sort of. When it works, it works well. Unfortunately, I'm a bit
mechanically challenged, and my success rate for tinning a lead
on the first try is about 1 in 5. It seems the problem for me is
figuring out the rate to apply more solder during the process.
So, I've spent lots of extra time touching up the leads.

But, I'm still happy that I chose to wind and tin the toroids myself.
And, I'm sure I'll get the solder blob method down pat any year
now :-)

I really like the pictures of the completed toroids in the KPA100
manual as they provides a nice way for checking my spacing.

72 de Benjy


---
Benjy Cline AC4XO, K2 S/N 2434
http://www.tuxcat.com/benjy
Jim W7RY" (Jim W7RY)
2002-08-20 16:18:01 UTC
Permalink
The only way I do it.

Works great...

To each their own.


73
Jim W7RY
#2740

----- Original Message -----
From: "Benjy Cline AC4XO" <***@tuxcat.com>
To: <***@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 7:43 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] Torroids?
Post by Benjy Cline AC4XO
Hi,
Concerning the solder blob method for removing the enamel and
I never got this to work while building the base K2.
I finally just used the match method. But, then, with the KPA 100
toroids and a different tip, I was able to get the solder blob method
to work, sort of. When it works, it works well. Unfortunately, I'm a bit
mechanically challenged, and my success rate for tinning a lead
on the first try is about 1 in 5. It seems the problem for me is
figuring out the rate to apply more solder during the process.
So, I've spent lots of extra time touching up the leads.
But, I'm still happy that I chose to wind and tin the toroids myself.
And, I'm sure I'll get the solder blob method down pat any year
now :-)
I really like the pictures of the completed toroids in the KPA100
manual as they provides a nice way for checking my spacing.
72 de Benjy
---
Benjy Cline AC4XO, K2 S/N 2434
http://www.tuxcat.com/benjy
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Ron D'Eau Claire
2002-08-20 17:11:01 UTC
Permalink
Concerning the solder blob method for removing the enamel and tinning
leads:

I never got this to work while building the base K2.
72 de Benjy
--------------------------------------------------------

It has a lot to do with having a hot enough iron.

I know that the "toroidguy" uses a solder pot. But that's not something
to be careless with, having a large amount of molten solder around .

I found it easiest to strip the enamel. I don't know about the heavier
wire for the KPA100, but the K2 toroids used wire whose enamel simply
fell off with little effort. I used a moderately sharp edge (NOT a sharp
knife!) pressed against the enamel and then pulled the wire over the
edge. It "popped" the sleeve of enamel loose from the wire and it came
off in one or two passes leaving clean, shiny copper and no visible mark
on the wire. Then I tinned the bare lead with my regular small iron.

The problem with a "nick" in the wire is that any tiny movement caused
by vibration, handling, etc., will cause the wire flex more at the nick
instead of spreading the movement evenly over the whole length of the
lead. The wire may eventually crystallize and break at that point some
day.

I have worked with enamel covered wire where this method did not work at
all well. One had to scrape/sand every millimeter of the enamel off.
That's a lot more work and requires care to avoid nicking the wire. In
those cases I get out the big iron and have at it with plenty of heat.

Ron AC7AC
K2 # 1289
Dan Barker
2002-08-21 15:45:01 UTC
Permalink
If the sense of the windings matters (other than mechanically), the
schematic will show phasing dots on the windings.

All that aside, it just doesn't fit the board well wound backwards. BTW, I'm
lefthanded, and found the "natural" way of winding to be a mirror image of
"correct". All these righties having problems confuse me no end!

Dan / WG4S / K2 #2456
Jim W7RY" (Jim W7RY)
2002-08-22 04:00:01 UTC
Permalink
Perhaps I'm ambidextrous and don't even know it!

I'm right handed and wind naturally wind em wrong... I have made a sample
and keep it handy... That way I know it will look
neater when installed on the board.

73!

Jim W7RY

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Barker" <***@visioncomm.net>
To: "Elecraft" <***@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 7:37 AM
Subject: FW: [Elecraft] Torroids? Left or Right Hand wind ??
Post by Dan Barker
If the sense of the windings matters (other than mechanically), the
schematic will show phasing dots on the windings.
All that aside, it just doesn't fit the board well wound backwards. BTW, I'm
lefthanded, and found the "natural" way of winding to be a mirror image of
"correct". All these righties having problems confuse me no end!
Dan / WG4S / K2 #2456
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