Discussion:
[Elecraft] K3 needs survey -- firmware and application software
Wes Stewart
2010-01-15 19:46:43 UTC
Permalink
If it's not too late I would like to add another couple of requests.

1) Add Accukey emulation so I can send CW with the K3.

2) Since the new DSP mods extends the bandwidth down to minus DC, implement phasing detection to improve the opposite sideband rejection. Even without the bandwidth extension, the SSB opposite sideband rejection is not the greatest.

Wes N7WS


On Wed, 12/23/09, Wayne Burdick <n6kr at elecraft.com> wrote:

Hi all,

As you probably know, we keep a list of firmware features and?
improvements to be added as time permits. Many of the most-requested?
changes were made over the past several months, keeping pace with the?
demands of the fall/winter contest season. (A few that come to mind:?
switch sequence automation via macros, improved DVR interaction with?
PTT, main/sub audio mixing, improved NR, lockable transmit controls,?
and many enhanced remote-control commands.)

As we head into 2010, we'd like to refresh the master firmware list?
based on your input. Items already on the list have priority, of?
course, but this is a great opportunity to let us know what else is?

missing or could be improved. Our goal is to make the K3 as easy to?
use as possible, while providing the advanced features you need for?
specific operating situations.

We're also planning a renewed effort to assist application software?
developers. If your ideas for improvements involve changes to both K3?
firmware and a favorite application, we'll pass it along to the?
developers and work with them closely.

We're making great progress on the P3 Panadapter and other new?
products. There will be some surprises in 2010 :)

73,
Wayne
N6KR
Merv Schweigert
2010-01-15 22:03:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wes Stewart
2) Since the new DSP mods extends the bandwidth down to minus DC, implement phasing detection to improve the opposite sideband rejection. Even without the bandwidth extension, the SSB opposite sideband rejection is not the greatest.
Wes N7WS
I think that has been altered from really good suppression to just so so
from the demand of users to go to the lower audio freqs. I complained
about it in private and they shifted the offset a little to make it some
better, for me I need the supression, not the 10HZ audio..
Merv KH7C
Julian, G4ILO
2010-01-15 22:54:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Merv Schweigert
I think that has been altered from really good suppression to just so so
from the demand of users to go to the lower audio freqs. I complained
about it in private and they shifted the offset a little to make it some
better, for me I need the supression, not the 10HZ audio..
Surely the opposite sideband suppression is the same as it always was? All
that has changed is the ability to hear it. To restore the previous
functionality just move LO CUT up a bit and set the 50 and 100Hz EQ settings
to the minimum.

-----
Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 K3 #222.
* G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
* KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
* KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html
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Wes Stewart
2010-01-15 23:32:55 UTC
Permalink
If I use my XG2 as a source into the K3 and set the SSB BW to the default settings for my 2.8KHz 8-pole filter (100Hz to 2.9KHz) the signal which is S9 at its peak is still S7 at zero beat.? A 100 Hz beat note on the wrong sideband is still S3 and a 200 Hz beat is >S1.

The equalizer has no effect of the s-meter.?

If I run this same test on my TS-870, even with the lower pass band set to zero, there is no opposite sideband, nada, zip.? That's because the '870 uses the phasing method of detection in addition to crystal and DSP filtering.

I am no DSP expert but I have been told that this would be pretty easy implement in DSP. So why not do it?

Wes N7WS
From: Julian, G4ILO <julian.g4ilo at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 needs survey -- firmware and application software
To: elecraft at mailman.qth.net
Date: Friday, January 15, 2010, 3:54 PM
Post by Merv Schweigert
I think that has been altered from really good
suppression to just so so
Post by Merv Schweigert
from the demand of users to go to the lower audio
freqs.? I complained
Post by Merv Schweigert
about it in private and they shifted the offset a
little to make it some
Post by Merv Schweigert
better,? for me I need the supression,? not
the 10HZ audio..
Surely the opposite sideband suppression is the same as it
always was? All
that has changed is the ability to hear it. To restore the
previous
functionality just move LO CUT up a bit and set the 50 and
100Hz EQ settings
to the minimum.
-----
Julian, G4ILO
2010-01-16 00:11:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wes Stewart
If I use my XG2 as a source into the K3 and set the SSB BW to the default
settings for my 2.8KHz 8-pole filter (100Hz to 2.9KHz) the signal which is
S9 at its peak is still S7 at zero beat.? A 100 Hz beat note on the wrong
sideband is still S3 and a 200 Hz beat is >S1.
The equalizer has no effect of the s-meter.?
If I run this same test on my TS-870, even with the lower pass band set to
zero, there is no opposite sideband, nada, zip.? That's because the '870
uses the phasing method of detection in addition to crystal and DSP
filtering.
The S meter measures the amount of signal that gets through the filters. I
don't see how the detection method would affect it.

I just ran the same test. With my 2.7KHz filter I got S6 at zero beat,
otherwise the results were much the same as yours. I admit it doesn't look
too impressive, but I don't have anything else to compare it with. The S
meters on other radios tend to be a lot more sensitive over the range up to
S9 (i.e. fewer dB per S-point) which would make the opposite sideband
rejection *look* better.

I think you can move the filter further away from the carrier by playing
with the offset values in the filter setup.

-----
Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 K3 #222.
* G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
* KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
* KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html
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Guy Olinger K2AV
2010-01-16 04:11:06 UTC
Permalink
I was going to say, all of that being complained about, can be set any
way you want. Try the SHIFT control on the front panel. Set the
crossover *anywhere you want it*. The SHIFT setting is remembered by
mode.

Being able to hear down there was specifically requested by some who
do not share your tastes. In the past the firmware would NOT ALLOW
that degree of downward shift. Now both of you can now set it like
you want it.

73, Guy.
Post by Julian, G4ILO
Post by Wes Stewart
If I use my XG2 as a source into the K3 and set the SSB BW to the default
settings for my 2.8KHz 8-pole filter (100Hz to 2.9KHz) the signal which is
S9 at its peak is still S7 at zero beat.? A 100 Hz beat note on the wrong
sideband is still S3 and a 200 Hz beat is >S1.
The equalizer has no effect of the s-meter.
If I run this same test on my TS-870, even with the lower pass band set to
zero, there is no opposite sideband, nada, zip.? That's because the '870
uses the phasing method of detection in addition to crystal and DSP
filtering.
The S meter measures the amount of signal that gets through the filters. I
don't see how the detection method would affect it.
I just ran the same test. With my 2.7KHz filter I got S6 at zero beat,
otherwise the results were much the same as yours. I admit it doesn't look
too impressive, but I don't have anything else to compare it with. The S
meters on other radios tend to be a lot more sensitive over the range up to
S9 (i.e. fewer dB per S-point) which would make the opposite sideband
rejection *look* better.
I think you can move the filter further away from the carrier by playing
with the offset values in the filter setup.
-----
Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 ?K3 #222.
* G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
* KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
* KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html
--
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Julian, G4ILO
2010-01-16 09:42:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guy Olinger K2AV
I was going to say, all of that being complained about, can be set any
way you want. Try the SHIFT control on the front panel. Set the
crossover *anywhere you want it*. The SHIFT setting is remembered by
mode.
Being able to hear down there was specifically requested by some who
do not share your tastes. In the past the firmware would NOT ALLOW
that degree of downward shift. Now both of you can now set it like
you want it.
I thought the original point was that this occurred in the normal position
of the SHIFT control. When I got an S6 meter reading at zero beat LO CUT was
showing 0.15 and SHIFT was centered on 1.50 which I believe is what they
were originally. I also thought the issue was about the amount of unwanted
sideband response, not specifically about hearing low frequencies.

As you say, one can simply shift the passband or make it narrower if you
want to. I was just a little surprised to discover that in the normal
position - which presumably is the same filter setting used for transmit -
the response is only about 15dB down at the zero beat frequency. But perhaps
it really isn't that unusual and the OP is mistaken.

-----
Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 K3 #222.
* G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
* KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
* KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html
--
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Guy Olinger K2AV
2010-01-17 02:55:45 UTC
Permalink
The bandwidth and offset will need to be set for what they actually
are. And at the crossover, even what you measured you are down to the
steep part of the curve. Another 200 Hz and you will be way down.

I'd need to check out that "presumably" on transmit with Elecraft.
That word has gotten me in a lot of trouble over my lifetime.

73, Guy.
Post by Julian, G4ILO
Post by Guy Olinger K2AV
I was going to say, all of that being complained about, can be set any
way you want. ?Try the SHIFT control on the front panel. Set the
crossover *anywhere you want it*. ?The SHIFT setting is remembered by
mode.
Being able to hear down there was specifically requested by some who
do not share your tastes. In the past the firmware would NOT ALLOW
that degree of downward shift. ?Now both of you can now set it like
you want it.
I thought the original point was that this occurred in the normal position
of the SHIFT control. When I got an S6 meter reading at zero beat LO CUT was
showing 0.15 and SHIFT was centered on 1.50 which I believe is what they
were originally. I also thought the issue was about the amount of unwanted
sideband response, not specifically about hearing low frequencies.
As you say, one can simply shift the passband or make it narrower if you
want to. I was just a little surprised to discover that in the normal
position - which presumably is the same filter setting used for transmit -
the response is only about 15dB down at the zero beat frequency. But perhaps
it really isn't that unusual and the OP is mistaken.
-----
Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 ?K3 #222.
* G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
* KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
* KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html
--
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Lyle Johnson
2010-01-17 03:06:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guy Olinger K2AV
I'd need to check out that "presumably" on transmit with Elecraft.
That word has gotten me in a lot of trouble over my lifetime.
The Tx and Rx bandwidth and opposite sideband rejection are not the
same. Rx adjustments do not affect the Tx.

73,

Lyle KK7P

Wes Stewart
2010-01-16 15:05:33 UTC
Permalink
I'm the OP and I'm never mistaken :-)

This is actually humorous in a strange sort of way. Someone makes a well-intentioned suggestion for a change that will improve the performance of the radio and the "Elecraft can do no wrong and I'm perfectly happy with mine" contingent leaps to conclusions that it's a "complaint."

I can say without reservation that my (and others') K3 is a *much* better radio now than it was a year ago when I first put it into operation and some of that is due to my "complaints."

I suggest that when someone starts to think "complaint", they replace that thought with, "free engineering."

Wes N7WS
Post by Guy Olinger K2AV
Post by Guy Olinger K2AV
I was going to say, all of that being complained
about, can be set any
Post by Guy Olinger K2AV
way you want.? Try the SHIFT control on the front
panel. Set the
Post by Guy Olinger K2AV
crossover *anywhere you want it*.? The SHIFT
setting is remembered by
Post by Guy Olinger K2AV
mode.
Being able to hear down there was specifically
requested by some who
Post by Guy Olinger K2AV
do not share your tastes. In the past the firmware
would NOT ALLOW
Post by Guy Olinger K2AV
that degree of downward shift.? Now both of you
can now set it like
Post by Guy Olinger K2AV
you want it.
I thought the original point was that this occurred in the
normal position
of the SHIFT control. When I got an S6 meter reading at
zero beat LO CUT was
showing 0.15 and SHIFT was centered on 1.50 which I believe
is what they
were originally. I also thought the issue was about the
amount of unwanted
sideband response, not specifically about hearing low
frequencies.
As you say, one can simply shift the passband or make it
narrower if you
want to. I was just a little surprised to discover that in
the normal
position - which presumably is the same filter setting used
for transmit -
the response is only about 15dB down at the zero beat
frequency. But perhaps
it really isn't that unusual and the OP is mistaken.
Lyle Johnson
2010-01-16 16:03:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wes Stewart
I can say without reservation that my (and others') K3 is a *much* better radio now than it was a year ago when I first put it into operation and some of that is due to my "complaints."
To which I add that we are always looking for ways to improve the K3 and
other products to better meet the needs, desires and expectations of our
customers.

Keep those complaints coming!

73,

Lyle KK7P
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